Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Robert123
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:18 pm

Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by Robert123 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:43 am

Hi All,

I find myself confused on the topic of supramundane jhanas (and yes, I know they are not mentioned in the suttas).

My question is, if the supramundane jhanas occur in the "fruition path" (magga) and "fruition knowledge" (phala) then a person is experiencing nibbana when a person realizes the supramundane jhanas? If not, why not? If yes, then the supramundane jhanas ARE nibbana itself.
This can be of help this discussion
The Abhidhammattha Saṅgaha regarding the 4 paths (stream-enterer, once returner ect...) states:

The First Jhāna Sotāpatti [Stream-Enterer] Path-consciousness together with initial application, sustained application, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness, / The Second Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with sustained application, joy, happiness, and onepointedness, / The Third Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with joy, happiness, and one-pointedness, / The Fourth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness, / The Fifth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with equanimity and one-pointedness. / So are the Sakadāgāmi [Once Returner] Path-consciousness, Anāgāmi [Non-Returner] Path-consciousness, and Arahatta Path-consciousness, making exactly twenty classes of consciousness. (cited in Gunaratana, A Critical, 316-17).

Thanks!

Rob

User avatar
Volovsky
Posts: 286
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by Volovsky » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:16 am

Robert123 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:43 am
My question is, if the supramundane jhanas occur in the "fruition path" (magga) and "fruition knowledge" (phala) then a person is experiencing nibbana when a person realizes the supramundane jhanas?
Yes.
If yes, then the supramundane jhanas ARE nibbana itself
No. Nibbāna is the object of supramundane consciousness, and is perceived during the process called "supramundane jhāna".For example: sentient beings are the object of metta jhāna, but we cannot say, that sentient beings are metta.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:38 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:


'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is
dependent on which
you're absorbed.'"

When this was said, Ven. Sandha said to the Blessed One, "But in what way, lord, is the excellent thoroughbred of a man absorbed when he is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, heat, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed, so that to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:


'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is
dependent on which
you're absorbed.'"

"There is the case, Sandha, where for an excellent thoroughbred of a man the perception[2] of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist; the perception of liquid with regard to liquid... the perception of fire with regard to fire... the perception of wind with regard to wind... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of space with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of space... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness... the perception of the sphere of nothingness with regard to the sphere of nothingness... the perception of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception with regard to the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception... the perception of this world with regard to this world... the next world with regard to the next world... and whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect: the perception of that has ceased to exist.

"Absorbed in this way, the excellent thoroughbred of a man is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:


'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is
dependent on which
you're absorbed.'"
this is a sutta describing superlative absorption and as far as i can tell it describes cessation of namarupa in whatever way it is attained.

For your question the unconditioned is one thing and Superlative absorbtion is another, but superlative absorption realizes the cessation of the conditioned and the unconditioned is when the conditioned is not. In case of temporary attainment of cessation that is temporary and a person can be said to be experiencing it but that is a conventional speech, he himself being conditioned realized cessation of the conditioned so technically a person does not experience the unconditioned with body and mind so is in the case of a dead Arahant he can not be said to be abiding in the unconditioned because unconditioned is one thing and the person who attains cessation of the conditioned is another. Dead people don't meditate.

As for the abhidhamma explaination of phala, magga and lokutarra citta i don't really want to go there.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

pegembara
Posts: 1336
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by pegembara » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:02 am

Robert123 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:43 am
My question is, if the supramundane jhanas occur in the "fruition path" (magga) and "fruition knowledge" (phala) then a person is experiencing nibbana when a person realizes the supramundane jhanas?
Nibbana without residue is the cessation of experience like a lamp going out. That is the full or final nibbana.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
The living experience of an arahant.
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:05 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:38 am
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"There is the case, Sandha, where for an excellent thoroughbred of a man the perception[2] of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist; the perception of liquid with regard to liquid... the perception of fire with regard to fire... the perception of wind with regard to wind... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of space with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of space... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness... the perception of the sphere of nothingness with regard to the sphere of nothingness... the perception of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception with regard to the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception... the perception of this world with regard to this world... the next world with regard to the next world... and whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect: the perception of that has ceased to exist.
The above translation appears questionable & suspect because it appears to contradict MN 1 and also appears to contradict reality. It appears "unachievable" thus would probably fall outside the definition of "Dhamma", which is to be verified by the wise for themselves. It also appears unfortunate Bhikkhus Bodhi, Thanissaro and Sujato each translate this passage in the same way, even though this passage appears to contradict MN 1. However, at least Thanissaro included a footnote, saying the word "sanna/perception" refers to a "mental note or label"; which appears to distinguish "sanna" here from "sanna" as direct experiencing. Bhikkhu Bodhi makes the following excuses (in the attachment below but obviously when recently translating his AN came under the influence of the Brahm sect referring to Chinese Agama :roll: ). It is illogical if the Pali is not clear then the belated Chinese would be clear. As Bhikkhu Bodhi said, the Pali term "vibhuta" is extremely rare. As for his conclusions about Snp 874 and Snp 1113, they are not at all conclusive given it was not the Buddha who introduced this term "vibhuta" into these conversations and given these passages can be interpreted differently. For example, in Snp 874, "vibhuta" is only used in relation to "form" and not used in relation to the cessation of "longing". If "vibhuta" simply meant "disappear" then it could be used for both "longing" and "form". The key to this matter is the meanings or uses for the words "bhuta" and "bhavati".
Snp 874
Buddha

Nāmañcanāma: name; the immaterial factors such as consciousness, perception. (adj.), (in cpds.) having the name of. + ca: and; then; now. (copulative or disjunctive particle) rūpañca paṭicca phasso,
Icchānidānāni pariggahāni;
Icchāyasantyā na mamattamatthi,
Rūpe vibhūte na phusanti phassā”.

Touches” depend upon mind, upon form,
possessiveness caused by longing repeated,
when longing’s not found, possessiveness’s gone,
When form is no longer, no “touches” are “touched”.
Definitions for vibhūta
Concise Pali English Dictionary
vibhūta
pp.
clear; distinct.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
vibhūta
adjective

[cp. bhūta 1, & vibhava 2] destroyed, annihilated, being without Thag.715; Snp.871 sq., Snp.1113 (= vibhāvita atikkanta vītivatta Cnd.584).
[cp. bhūta 3] false Snp.664.
[cp. vibhāveti 2] clear, distinct AN.v.325; Mil.311; Ab dhs.16 (a˚ unclear); Vism.112 (& a˚); -ṃ karoti to explain Mil.308.
pp. of vibhavati, or vi + bhūta
https://suttacentral.net/define/vibh%C5%ABta
Attachments
an 11 9.jpg

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:25 pm

Robert123 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:43 am
I find myself confused on the topic of supramundane jhanas (and yes, I know they are not mentioned in the suttas).
But they appear to be found in the suttas. "Supramundane" appears to be explained in suttas such as MN 117 and SN 20.7, as connected to non-attachment & emptiness, as follows:
... words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent (supramundane), connected with emptiness...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is the right resolve that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The following appears to be supramundane jhanas:
There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, unsatisfactory, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
Robert123 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:43 am
the supramundane jhanas ARE nibbana itself.
"Jhana" is "samatha" and "Nibbana" is related to "non-attachment". Jhana is not Nibbana. Nibbana is not-attachment to jhana (and all other experiences). To say supramundane jhana is Nibbana is the same as saying the supramundane experience of cow dung is Nibbana. The jhana and cow dung are not Nibbana. :smile:
Volovsky wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:16 am
Nibbāna is the object of supramundane consciousness, and is perceived during the process called "supramundane jhāna".For example: sentient beings are the object of metta jhāna, but we cannot say, that sentient beings are metta.
:thumbsup: :anjali:

User avatar
Volovsky
Posts: 286
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by Volovsky » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:37 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:05 pm
The above translation appears questionable & suspect because it appears to contradict MN 1 and also appears to contradict reality. It appears "unachievable" thus would probably fall outside the definition of "Dhamma", which is to be verified by the wise for themselves.
Why is it "unachievable"? I don't understand.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:38 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:37 pm
Why is it "unachievable"? I don't understand.
Because if Nibbana was the disappearance of all of the perceptions listed in that sutta then the Nibbana of the Buddha was temporary (given the Buddha experienced those perceptions). The suttas say Nibbana is not temporary. In short, the true Dhamma is not found in obscure hidden suttas that the translators aren't clear about. Both Bodhi and Thanissaro needed to footnote their translations in an attempt to make sense of it.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:41 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:05 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:38 am
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"There is the case, Sandha, where for an excellent thoroughbred of a man the perception[2] of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist; the perception of liquid with regard to liquid... the perception of fire with regard to fire... the perception of wind with regard to wind... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of space with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of space... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness... the perception of the sphere of nothingness with regard to the sphere of nothingness... the perception of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception with regard to the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception... the perception of this world with regard to this world... the next world with regard to the next world... and whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect: the perception of that has ceased to exist.
The above translation appears questionable & suspect because it appears to contradict MN 1 and also appears to contradict reality. It appears "unachievable" thus would probably fall outside the definition of "Dhamma", which is to be verified by the wise for themselves. It also appears unfortunate Bhikkhus Bodhi, Thanissaro and Sujato each translate this passage in the same way, even though this passage appears to contradict MN 1. However, at least Thanissaro included a footnote, saying the word "sanna/perception" refers to a "mental note or label"; which appears to distinguish "sanna" here from "sanna" as direct experiencing. Bhikkhu Bodhi makes the following excuses (in the attachment below but obviously when recently translating his AN came under the influence of the Brahm sect referring to Chinese Agama :roll: ). It is illogical if the Pali is not clear then the belated Chinese would be clear. As Bhikkhu Bodhi said, the Pali term "vibhuta" is extremely rare. As for his conclusions about Snp 874 and Snp 1113, they are not at all conclusive given it was not the Buddha who introduced this term "vibhuta" into these conversations and given these passages can be interpreted differently. For example, in Snp 874, "vibhuta" is only used in relation to "form" and not used in relation to the cessation of "longing". If "vibhuta" simply meant "disappear" then it could be used for both "longing" and "form". The key to this matter is the meanings or uses for the words "bhuta" and "bhavati".
Snp 874
Buddha

Nāmañcanāma: name; the immaterial factors such as consciousness, perception. (adj.), (in cpds.) having the name of. + ca: and; then; now. (copulative or disjunctive particle) rūpañca paṭicca phasso,
Icchānidānāni pariggahāni;
Icchāyasantyā na mamattamatthi,
Rūpe vibhūte na phusanti phassā”.

Touches” depend upon mind, upon form,
possessiveness caused by longing repeated,
when longing’s not found, possessiveness’s gone,
When form is no longer, no “touches” are “touched”.
Definitions for vibhūta
Concise Pali English Dictionary
vibhūta
pp.
clear; distinct.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
vibhūta
adjective

[cp. bhūta 1, & vibhava 2] destroyed, annihilated, being without Thag.715; Snp.871 sq., Snp.1113 (= vibhāvita atikkanta vītivatta Cnd.584).
[cp. bhūta 3] false Snp.664.
[cp. vibhāveti 2] clear, distinct AN.v.325; Mil.311; Ab dhs.16 (a˚ unclear); Vism.112 (& a˚); -ṃ karoti to explain Mil.308.
pp. of vibhavati, or vi + bhūta
https://suttacentral.net/define/vibh%C5%ABta
tl;dr but let it appear to you, you can question and suspect as much as your heart desire
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:42 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:41 pm
tl;dr but you can question and suspect as much as your heart desire
Defeated again. The defeated resort to "personal attacks" while the victorious merely discuss the Dhamma. :strawman: :jedi: :rofl:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:44 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:42 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:41 pm
tl;dr but you can question and suspect as much as your heart desire
Defeated again. The defeated resort to "personal attacks" while the victorious merely discuss the Dhamma. :strawman: :jedi: :rofl:
lol i just don't consider you worth talking to that's all. Seems and appears never defeated anyone.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:45 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:44 pm
lol i just don't consider you worth talking to that's all. Seems and appears never defeated anyone.
My post was a good post, even if it was not accurate or true. Anyone with sincere intent in studying the suttas is welcome to reply to my post and offer any clarifications. As I said, defilement defeated your mind. That is what "defeat" means in Buddhism. The mind defeated by defilements. :geek:

User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 184
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by Manopubbangama » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:37 pm

Liberation is won through non-clinging.

MN 74 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

See path of Sariputta MN 111 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html .

The path of Magallana is faster but less documented.


There are 3 parts of the path and Samadhi is one of them: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html




Also see AN 3.102 http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 3-102.html

Path gradual, not simultaneous from one sitting, Nibbana is not synonymous with Jhanas.
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Sabbe Sankhara Anicca - Sabbe Sankhara Dukkha - Sabbe Dhamma Anatta

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:43 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:45 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:44 pm
lol i just don't consider you worth talking to that's all. Seems and appears never defeated anyone.
My post was a good post, even if it was not accurate or true. Anyone with sincere intent in studying the suttas is welcome to reply to my post and offer any clarifications. As I said, defilement defeated your mind. That is what "defeat" means in Buddhism. The mind defeated by defilements. :geek:
fair enough aversion did overcome me
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

chownah
Posts: 7596
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:28 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:05 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:38 am
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"There is the case, Sandha, where for an excellent thoroughbred of a man the perception[2] of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist; the perception of liquid with regard to liquid... the perception of fire with regard to fire... the perception of wind with regard to wind... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of space with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of space... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness... the perception of the sphere of nothingness with regard to the sphere of nothingness... the perception of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception with regard to the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception... the perception of this world with regard to this world... the next world with regard to the next world... and whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect: the perception of that has ceased to exist.
The above translation appears questionable & suspect because it appears to contradict MN 1
....
....
The above excerpt says
"where for an excellent thoroughbred of a man the perception[2] of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist".
MN1 says
There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — perceives earth as earth. Perceiving earth as earth, he conceives [things] about earth, he conceives [things] in earth, he conceives [things] coming out of earth, he conceives earth as 'mine,' he delights in earth........
........
.........
"A monk who is a Worthy One, devoid of mental fermentations — who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is released through right knowledge — directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth."
Notice that in mn1 it is only the "uninstructed run-of-the-mill person" who "PERCEIVES earth as earth" but that the arahant and the thatagata are said that each "DIRECTLY KNOWS earth as earth". This seems to amply agree with the first excerpt wherein similarly for the thoroughbred man perception has ceased.

It seems like "the perception of earth" (as in the first excerpt) should be considered a conceived thing about earth or a conceived thing in earth or a conceived thing coming out of the earth or conceived ownership of earth or a form of delighting in earth......then there is no contradiction between the two.

Seems to me that the two suttas appear to agree remarkably well if not exactly....and that there is no contradiction at all.....it also seems to be saying something about perceiving/perception and in turn about dependent origination and the items which are shown in it.
chownah

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: kamui, Yahoo [Bot] and 101 guests