DNS wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:46 pm
robertk wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:55 am
DNS wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:30 am
It's interesting that she was a sakadagami and had depression. A modern trend found in some Buddhists is the "arahantification of sotapannas"
believing sotapannas are almost on a par with arahants and here is the report of a sakadagami (much higher than a sotapanna) with depression.
Yes. The sakadagami has removed all wrong view and attentuated sense desire.
But levels of sense desire still arise and hence so does aversion, even quite strong and continuing aversion.
I agree and since there is still sense desire and aversion, there can be depression. The modern trend of making noble states virtually an impossible state to attain, is mistaken, imo.
I personally don't have any magga or phala to proclaim and its not that I'm so humble but because I don't think I have attained them.
We can be certain that I am not an Arya here because an Arya would not/could not lie.
So at least we can deduce who is not
Regarding who indeed IS an Arya, its brutally hard to tell: I know my teacher would never tell me his own level of magga, phala because its against his precepts. I suspect he is at least a Sotapanna.
That being said, what I would like to know, is if there is some kind of Saul of Tarsus moment when you are blinded by the light of stream entry and you actually know it yourself.
I do know the Abhidhammic prescription but it doesn't tell you if you are aware of it.
To make matters more complicated there are a slew of internet arahants that I seriously don't trust given their records of breaking precepts such as right speech. I trust that they think they are arahants and should be obeyed, admired, respected, etc but of course, its not that simple.
I'm not saying that I give up my search for Arahantship or Stream-Entry but I don't know exactly how to practice towards these attainments and have no idea that if Stream-entry occurs if I will even be aware of it. The way I interpret the Buddha's adherence to "strive on tirelessly" implies that suicide before arahantship would be an impossibility.
That being said, I still don't think my practice has been a waste; I know it has helped me quite a bit, but if someone can give me a realistic (Suttanta-based) prescription of what the experience of stream-entry is like, it would be great because I have read the Samyutta section, and several books on the topic, but still do not know.
The Evola translator, I feel, became addicted to jhana and grew depressed when he could no longer attain it. Not 100% sure but my gut-feeling is that he was not a sotapanna.
And for those who claim ( there are many here) that you need proper sila to attain jhana, than how did the Buddha learn arupa-jhanas before he had even invented/rediscovered the 8fold path?
Clearly Jhana can be attained without magga and phala. It can be attained without any seriously cultivated sila. This I am sure of.
And Jhana is an absolutely unmistakable experience, whereas stream-entry may or may not be - but if it is, I havn't found the stock formula for it.
In a way it is almost a curse to attain jhana before stream-entry because the craving for it can become extreme.
Its almost like eating your dessert before getting to your veggies.