robertk wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:11 am
User1249x wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:34 am
and putthujhanas attain arahantship by killing themselves
well yes, Godhika, vakkali and Channa were all putthujana and became arahat during the act of suicide.
i have absolutely no dog in this race and I have not researched all of those cases but as to what pertains to Channa in particular;
for the life of me i can not see the slightest bit of evidence for this being remotely possible or having any evidence.
budo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:15 am
Hmm, interesting sutta. Could it be that Channa was a non-returner?
Why not just enter nirohda samapatti continuously until you die.
The Buddha was poisoned by mushrooms, he was able to die on command.
If he was a non-returner he is still an Ariyan and as far as i can tell that is not a reasonable assumption because Ven. Channa himself declared that he would not be taking another body before using the knife and this declaration was affirmed by the Buddha. Having pure abodes as one's destination still counts as taking a body albeit a mind-made one, here is a discourse which i would use as evidence;
numbered discourses 5
17. resentment
166. Cessation
There Venerable Sāriputta addressed the mendicants: … “Reverends, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. That is possible. If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, then, surpassing the company of gods that consume solid food, they’re reborn in a certain group of mind-made gods. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. That is possible.”
When he said this, Venerable Udāyī said to him: “This is not possible, Reverend Sāriputta, it cannot happen!”
But for a second … and a third time Sāriputta repeated his statement.
And for a third time, Udāyī said to him: “This is not possible, Reverend Sāriputta, it cannot happen!”
Then Venerable Sāriputta thought: “Venerable Udāyī disagrees with me three times, and not one mendicant agrees with me. Why don’t I go to see the Buddha?” Then Sāriputta went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to the mendicants: “Reverends, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. There is such a possibility. If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, they’re reborn in the company of a certain group of mind-made gods, who surpass the gods that consume solid food. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. That is possible.”
When he said this, Udāyī said to him: “This is not possible, Reverend Sāriputta, it cannot happen!”
But for a second … and a third time Sāriputta repeated his statement.
And for a third time, Udāyī said to him: “This is not possible, Reverend Sāriputta, it cannot happen!”
Then Venerable Sāriputta thought: “Even in front of the Buddha Venerable Udāyī disagrees with me three times, and not one mendicant agrees with me. I’d better stay silent.” Then Sāriputta fell silent.
Then the Buddha said to Venerable Udāyī: “But Udāyī, do you believe in a mind-made body?” “Those gods, sir, who are formless, made of perception.” “Udāyī, what has an incompetent fool like you got to say? How on earth could you imagine you’ve got something worth saying!”
Then the Buddha said to Venerable Ānanda: “Ānanda! There’s a senior mendicant being harassed, and you just watch it happening. Don’t you have any compassion for a senior mendicant who is being harassed?”
Then the Buddha addressed the mendicants: “Mendicants, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. That is possible. If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, they’re reborn in the company of a certain group of mind-made gods, who surpass the gods that consume solid food. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. That is possible.” That is what the Buddha said. When he had spoken, the Holy One got up from his seat and entered his dwelling.
Therefore if Channa was a Non-Returner he would technically be wrong at the time of making the declaration because he would as a matter of fact be destined to be reborn with a mind-made body.
Remember this, friend Sāriputta: the bhikkhu Channa will use the knife blamelessly.”
“Sāriputta, didn’t the bhikkhu Channa declare his blameless-ness right in your presence?”
The bhikkhu Channa used the knife blamelessly. Thus, Sāriputta, should you remember it
As a matter of fact I think that saying that Ven. Channa was delusional at the time when making the declaration is reviling an Arahant with worst accusations too.
budo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:32 am
slitting his wrists.
i always thought it was the jugular vein but i am not sure why i have this idea... seems like a better way to go to i guess