Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:11 pm

Yes, it would be nice to have it typed.

I'm a little puzzled by your comments about about SN22.59. What is the significant difference you see between the Nanamoli translation here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/bodhi
Or Ven Sujato's for that matter? https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/sujato
I don't see any significant differences between those translations (just some minor differences in expression), but perhaps there is some particular point you have in mind.

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by budo » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:54 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:11 pm
Yes, it would be nice to have it typed.

I'm a little puzzled by your comments about about SN22.59. What is the significant difference you see between the Nanamoli translation here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/bodhi
Or Ven Sujato's for that matter? https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/sujato
I don't see any significant differences between those translations (just some minor differences in expression), but perhaps there is some particular point you have in mind.
Oh maybe you misunderstood my comment, I was saying that I found a sutta that I like that seemed different than other suttas on 3 characteristics, and that was a purely Nanamoli translation, which I wasn't aware existed as I thought Nanamoli's translations were all combined with Bhikkhu Bodhis, and I was wondering if there were more only Nanamoli translation alone without Bodhi.

Didn't mean to say that his translation was better, only that It was rare to find a sutta only by him and not with Bhikkhu Bodhi.

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:05 am

OK. Thanks for the clarification.

Of course, the Visuddhimagga translation was completed and published before Ven Nanamoli's untimely death, but the MN was only in manuscript form a selection of it was published (edited by Bhikkhu Khantipalo) before Bhikkhu Bodhi took up the project.

I had not really registered the Nanamoli translations of the SN, but since they are of the First Three Sermons (Dhammacakkappavattana 56.11, Anatta-lakkhana 22.59, Adittapariyaya35.28), which are very popular, and commonly chanted, it's not surprising that there are translations from him (and several others) on Access to Insight: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html Also, those suttas feature in his book "The Life of the Buddha".

Some of the MN suttas https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/index.html are credited just to him, and see also: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... index.html
Presumably those are the versions edited by Ven Khantipalo, as they have introductions by him.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanamoli_Bhikkhu

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by BKh » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:38 am

StormBorn wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:38 pm
So far, I also came across more than 10 suttas where Bhante Sujato appears to be having an abnormal bias as a translator plus some surprising omissions too. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are more reliable and improving over the years.
Just a reminder for folks who don't know, there is a thread on the SuttaCentral discussion forum where people can post typos. It is an easy way to collect good karma. https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/pl ... typos/9548

Dropped text is very common when doing a translation. Please point those out if you find them.

In a previous comment on Dhamma wheel someone said they reported a typo by email and when they didn't hear back they assumed that BS had some political bias for the omission. Turns out when it was reported in the right place, the typo was corrected.

There are several threads on the discussion forum where people ask questions about why he has translated things in a certain way and he will usually take the time to go into great detail as to exactly why he made the decision. He also seems very open to feedback, so before criticizing, folks should consider asking about why he has translated a certain way. To some degree it is still a work in progress, which I think is why they are not ready to issue a print edition.

If you address Bhante by name using @Sujato he will get a ping to read the message.

Also it should be noted that there were indeed criticisms of the translation by Ven Nyanamoli edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Still are, actually.
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by WorldTraveller » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:53 am

BKh wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:38 am
StormBorn wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:38 pm
So far, I also came across more than 10 suttas where Bhante Sujato appears to be having an abnormal bias as a translator plus some surprising omissions too. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are more reliable and improving over the years.
Just a reminder for folks who don't know, there is a thread on the SuttaCentral discussion forum where people can post typos. It is an easy way to collect good karma. https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/pl ... typos/9548
Is this relevant or even important to mention here? If my intention was to "collect more karma" which I have been doing all over the Samsara, there was no need of me becoming a Buddhist even.
“Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by BKh » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:15 am

WorldTraveller wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:53 am
BKh wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:38 am
Just a reminder for folks who don't know, there is a thread on the SuttaCentral discussion forum where people can post typos. It is an easy way to collect good karma. https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/pl ... typos/9548
Is this relevant or even important to mention here? If my intention was to "collect more karma" which I have been doing all over the Samsara, there was no need of me becoming a Buddhist even.
Of course, otherwise why would I have mentioned it?

But if you want to discuss that, please start a new thread. It's off topic here.
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by StormBorn » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:30 pm

BKh wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:38 am
StormBorn wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:38 pm
So far, I also came across more than 10 suttas where Bhante Sujato appears to be having an abnormal bias as a translator plus some surprising omissions too. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are more reliable and improving over the years.
Just a reminder for folks who don't know, there is a thread on the SuttaCentral discussion forum where people can post typos.
Please keep the presumptions to your self. :smile: Do you think we are dumb :rolleye: enough not to differentiate typos from biased personal interpretations? :o
BKh wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:38 am
It is an easy way to collect good karma. https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/pl ... typos/9548
Reminds me some of Mahamewnawa sales rep monks that I met in Sri Lanka who will sell anything promoting: "Collect good karma!"
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:26 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:30 pm
Just a reminder for folks who don't know, there is a thread on the SuttaCentral discussion forum where people can post typos.
Please keep the presumptions to your self. :smile: Do you think we are dumb :rolleye: enough not to differentiate typos from biased personal interpretations? :o
[/quote]
Well, of course, everyone has their biases and any translator has to make choices. However, in several cases missing text in the Sutta Central translations has been corrected when it was pointed out and translation choices have been changed when queried.

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by Trindolex2 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:54 am

Well, of course, everyone has their biases and any translator has to make choices. However, in several cases missing text in the Sutta Central translations has been corrected when it was pointed out and translation choices have been changed when queried.
Right, what ven. Sujato has started is a group project that belongs to everyone. I think he even stated so somewhere explicitly. The whole thing could grow in unexpected and wonderful ways that are not quite obvious yet.

However, following his work over the years, he probably has an explicit plan in his mind for everything that only someone who is deeply involved and has initiated the project could see.

For example, one benefit of sutta central that I see is that as the new generation of Buddhists starts using it as a resource, sutta versions from other historical traditions, ie Sarvastivada, Dharmaguptaka etc. will become common to be consulted while studying a particular sutta and therefore the walls of sectarianism will be weakened and Buddhists of different traditions will come together easier. I love the Pali tradition, but sometimes the rendering from the majjhima agama just makes better sense. And then some might even read his other, quite frankly difficult work, 'Sects and Sectarianism', which is another facet in bridging the traditions.

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by StormBorn » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:58 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:26 pm
Well, of course, everyone has their biases and any translator has to make choices. However, in several cases missing text in the Sutta Central translations has been corrected when it was pointed out and translation choices have been changed when queried.[/color]
And the choices are made out of biases. :smile: Yes, typos/copy paste omissions are corrected easily but there were several occasions, the faulty interpretations were neglected saying "we are not into the business of correcting interpretations!" :?

Anyhow, I no longer read Bhante Sujato's translations, but keep to Ven. Bodhi's and Pali. As I said earlier, Sutta Central is best as a reference index. And I really appreciate the work they put into it.
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by Zom » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:43 pm

And the choices are made out of biases.
Speaking of which... translating "sankharas" as "choices"? Really? Well, yes, I'm still using Ven. Bodhi versions too. Haven't found anything more precise yet. :reading:

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by BKh » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:22 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:43 pm
And the choices are made out of biases.
Speaking of which... translating "sankharas" as "choices"? Really? Well, yes, I'm still using Ven. Bodhi versions too. Haven't found anything more precise yet. :reading:
I agree choices sounds odd. But honestly "volitional formations" is not normal English. This is one of those words I'd personally prefer goes untranslated, but that goes against his translation principle to leave almost nothing translated. One of the great things about this body of work is that anyone is free to modify it. It seems to be used consistently, so it shouldn't be too hard to change.

For those who are intersted, there is a discussion on the "choices" choice over on the SuttaCentral discussion forum: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ex ... ices/10944

My favorite will always be Bhikkhu Bodhi's, though.
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato's Four Nikaya translations as Ebooks—October 2018

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:41 am

BKh wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:22 am
I agree choices sounds odd. But honestly "volitional formations" is not normal English.
Both "choices" and "volitional formations" appear questionable translations for the 2nd link of D.O.; adhering to the questionable Commentary interpretation of SN 12.51 and SN 12.25. Given "ignorance" is the preceding cause of "sankhara", it seems there is simply too strong imputation of "agency" or "free-will" in the ideas of "choices" or "volitional". The most important translation is "formations" because this is connotative of "not-self". It appears what seems to be your attempt to de-emphasis the term "formations" is contrary to Buddha-Dhamma. There is no term in English science for the "sankhara" of Dependent Origination therefore there is no need to consider what is "normal English". The Buddha revealed things unknown to humanity.
BKh wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:22 am
For those who are intersted, there is a discussion on the "choices" choice over on the SuttaCentral discussion forum: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ex ... ices/10944
Since you personally sound so dedicated to suttas, I would recommend exploring my ideas, here (about SN 12.51) and here (about SN 12.25) & here (about how sankhara is plural in the suttas but singular in Abhidhamma; which makes using SN 12.51 to explanation SN 12.2 questionable). It seems Bhikkhu Bodhi and Sujato present nothing exceptional given both appear to conform with the standard Commentary, Maha Vihara, whatever its called, Sri Lankan doctrine. I think it is important to not underestimate or overestimate what VBB and BS have done. They have done the tedious task of translating sutta. Saddhu! Supreme Gratitude! But they have not presented anything unique or exceptional. It like a Model-T Ford car exported to China in 1928. Just plain old standard Model-T Ford, even though Chinese in China in 1928 think the Model-T Ford is something amazing.
The Ford Model T (colloquially known as the Tin Lizzie, Leaping Lena, or flivver) is an automobile produced by Ford Motor Company from October 1, 1908, to May 26, 1927.
For example, while I may not necessarily wholly agree with the view below, at least it is an attempt to critically examine the suttas:
What is mental concocting? The Buddha said: "Monks, there are these three kinds of mental concocting: bodily formation, verbal formation and mental formation." The sayings of the Buddha in the Pali Scriptures explain sankhara as that which brews upor gives rise to the bodily functions, that which brews up verbal functions and that which brews up mental functions. But people who study in dhamma schools don't explain sankhara this way. They usually are taught according to the Visuddhimagga—that the three sankhara are meritorious karma functions (punn-abhisankhara), demeritorious karma functions(apunn-abhisankhara) and imperturbable karma functions (anenj-abhisankhara). They are different but overlapping matters needing detailed explanation. For now, you should know that those who like to explain Dependent Origination in terms of three life times always like to explain sankhara as meritorious, demeritorious and imperturbable karma formations. But in the Pali Scriptures, the real words of theBuddha explain sankhara as bodily, verbal and mental functions.

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