Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:45 pm

Zom wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:04 pm
But this is contradicted by MN 49 directly, which says that Vinnanam Anidassanam is not experienced thru allness of the all.
Phrasing there is, again "partake in" -- [allness of the all].
The mind of the Arahant is experienced thru allness of the all.
His mind experiences (get contact and feelings) through the all, yes. But at the same time it does not partake in it (in terms of craving and generating future existence).
The phrasing of the sutta mn49 is as a matter of fact;
"'Vinnanam Anidassanam,endless, radiant all around,has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.
Therefore when you say that the mind of an arahant experiences through the allness of the all and is the vinnanam anidassanam you are disproven by contradiction. Either the sutta is worded wrongly or you are wrong in equating the two.

I guess i dont have to explain the contradiction therein.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:17 pm

Zom wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:04 pm
'
The very non-existence [of whatever] is awalys not conditioned.
actually whole of samsara is conditioned and whatever situation of non-existence of X you are talking about that state where non-existence of something can be discerned is a conditioned state of samsara.
The process of the aggregates, elements and bases,
Proceeding without interruption is called ‘saṃsāra’.
(DA. ii. 496)
If something was to become extinguished along with the world and anything in whatever terms anything could be described, then that kind of cessation would not be discerned and would not be experienced in any way. This type of non-existence is a complete fantasy and is like a child saying "after death there is nothing". To discern the cessation of the entirety of something there need to be something else.
Zom wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:04 pm
'
But sometimes to make non-existence of something possible you have to stop something to exist; demolishing existing conditioned thing, of course, requires removing all supporting conditions. Classic simile - fire. Fire is conditioned. Fuel is conditioned. Removing fuel is a conditioned process. But when all this is done - the very absense of this fire - is uncoditioned; there are no conditions that "cause fire not to be" )) It is acutally otherwise - conditions can be only for existence of fire .)
The absence of fire is discerned as a conditioned state of the world where fire has ceased.

Unconditioned Element is not Samsara or the Cessation of Samsara nor is it a absence of any reality in whatever terms reality can be described. It is the sorrowless State where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. Where there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising. Because it is a truth and a reality in it's own right the cessation of Samsara can be discerned and realized.
Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."


Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.
Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "
this not my invention all i say here is merely explaining the Sutta;
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is thus discerned."


The born, become, produced,
made, fabricated, impermanent,
composed of aging & death,
a nest of illnesses, perishing,
come from nourishment
and the guide [that is craving] —
is unfit for delight.

The escape from that
is
calm, permanent,
beyond inference,
unborn, unproduced,
the sorrowless, stainless state,
the cessation of stressful qualities,
the stilling of fabrications,
bliss.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2268
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:54 pm

Therefore when you say that the mind of an arahant experiences through the allness of the all and is the vinnanam anidassanam you are disproven by contradiction.
See Ven. Bodhi translation. No "experience", but "partakes in".
actually whole of samsara is conditioned and whatever situation of non-existence of X you are talking about that state where non-existence of something can be discerned is a conditioned state of samsara.
Yes. Arahant's knowledge and mind are conditioned, of course.
If something was to become extinguished along with the world and anything in whatever terms anything could be described, then that kind of cessation would not be discerned and would not be experienced in any way. This type of non-existence is a complete fantasy and is like a child saying "after death there is nothing". To discern the cessation of the entirety of something there need to be something else.
We are talking about cessation of personal khandhas. Arahant has direct knowledge on this matter.
The absence of fire is discerned as a conditioned state of the world where fire has ceased.
Yes, and this is not a problem. Personal khandhas cessation can be seen this very way.
It is the sorrowless State
State of what? Personal mind? Then this is eternalism, sakkaya-ditthi. Actually nibbana is cessation of samsara .) I think this is obvious.
where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space
Indeed. This very citation describes precisely the cessation of samsara -)

The escape from that
is
calm, permanent,
beyond inference,
unborn, unproduced,
the sorrowless, stainless state,
the cessation of stressful qualities,
the stilling of fabrications,
bliss.
Indeed, cessation is permanent, bliss, happiness, not produced, not dependent on something, etc etc (though as sutta say "which in not experienced" - because everything ceases )). And as Commy says "this is happiness in sense of total lack of dukkha".

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16496
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:47 pm

This seems to be a perennial topic. I would be wary of reading too much into viññanam anidassanam, which only seems to appear in a couple of places in the canon:

viewtopic.php?t=12510
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10017#p153428
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/13 ... E2%80%99t/
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/wh ... -mn49/7476

:heart:
Mike

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:59 am

Zom wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:54 pm
Therefore when you say that the mind of an arahant experiences through the allness of the all and is the vinnanam anidassanam you are disproven by contradiction.
See Ven. Bodhi translation. No "experience", but "partakes in".
how convenient huh^^
Here is Sujato's translation;
Rather, I know more than you. Having directly known water … fire … air … creatures … gods … the Creator … Brahmā … the gods of streaming radiance … the gods replete with glory … the gods of abundant fruit … the Overlord … Having directly known all as all, and having directly known that which does not fall within the scope of experience based on all, I did not identify with all, I did not identify regarding all, I did not identify as all, I did not identify ‘all is mine’, I did not enjoy all. So Brahmā, I am not your equal in knowledge, still less your inferior. Rather, I know more than you.’

‘Well, good sir, if you have directly known that which is not within the scope of experience based on all, may your words not turn out to be void and hollow!

Consciousness that is invisible, infinite, radiant all round—that’s what is not within the scope of experience based on earth, water, fire, air, creatures, gods, the Creator, Brahmā, the gods of streaming radiance, the gods replete with glory, the gods of abundant fruit, the Overlord, and the all.
Zom wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:54 pm
actually whole of samsara is conditioned and whatever situation of non-existence of X you are talking about that state where non-existence of something can be discerned is a conditioned state of samsara.
Yes. Arahant's knowledge and mind are conditioned, of course.
Not only Arahant's knowledge, the whole world with the Arahant in it, any contact, any consciousness or mind, any situation or event is conditioned, All is conditioned.
Zom wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:54 pm
If something was to become extinguished along with the world and anything in whatever terms anything could be described, then that kind of cessation would not be discerned and would not be experienced in any way. This type of non-existence is a complete fantasy and is like a child saying "after death there is nothing". To discern the cessation of the entirety of something there need to be something else.
We are talking about cessation of personal khandhas. Arahant has direct knowledge on this matter.
He discerns also what is if khandas are not.
383

Having striven, brahman,
cut the stream.
Expel sensual passions.
Knowing the ending of fabrications,
brahman,
you know the Unmade.
97
97

A person
who is not credulous;
who knows the unconditioned;
who has broken all fetters;
who has destroyed the possibility of rebirth;
who has eliminated passion;
is the greatest of persons.
Zom wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:54 pm
The absence of fire is discerned as a conditioned state of the world where fire has ceased.
Yes, and this is not a problem. Personal khandhas cessation can be seen this very way.
no it can't, all you see is
The process of the aggregates, elements and bases,
Proceeding without interruption is called ‘saṃsāra’.
(DA. ii. 496)
you never discern not Samsara, therefore no you actually can't discern the cessation of the process you can merely discern cessation of one conditioned state and the arising of another conditioned state, or that one state is different from the next state. To discern the non-existence of Samsara [conditioned states] one need to discern the Unmade [non-conditioned state] that is outside of All.
Zom wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:54 pm
The escape from that
is
calm, permanent,
beyond inference,
unborn, unproduced,
the sorrowless, stainless state,
the cessation of stressful qualities,
the stilling of fabrications,
bliss.
Indeed, cessation is permanent, bliss, happiness, not produced, not dependent on something, etc etc (though as sutta say "which in not experienced" - because everything ceases )). And as Commy says "this is happiness in sense of total lack of dukkha".
Yes it is a state which is without quality of Dukkha and is a truth and reality apart of All.

Anyway let me know which word, sentence of statement you would like Sutta support for, as i said all this is from the Discourses it is not my invention.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:05 am

Zom wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:54 pm
It is the sorrowless State
State of what? Personal mind? Then this is eternalism, sakkaya-ditthi. Actually nibbana is cessation of samsara .) I think this is obvious.
State of "What" does not apply because it is Unmade, it is beyond all.

Eternalism does not apply to what is unmade, non-persistent, a singleness, unchanging and outside of time.

Sorrowless (Asoka) state, Unmade state, that dimension, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support.

The Buddha proclaimed it before his Parinibbana having dicrectly known it on his own.

This is not sakkaya-ditthi at all beause this is not a heaven or a world wherein a soul lives, nor is it a soul of a being or a state of a being, there are no beings there and there is no world there, it is not a state like any other conditioned state, it is The Unformed, Unoriginated, Unconditioned, Uncreated & Unconstructed, non-persisting, constant, timeless and stable
Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.
Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "
"There is the case, Sandha, where for an excellent thoroughbred of a man the perception[2] of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist; the perception of liquid with regard to liquid... the perception of fire with regard to fire... the perception of wind with regard to wind... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of space with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of space... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness... the perception of the sphere of nothingness with regard to the sphere of nothingness... the perception of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception with regard to the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception... the perception of this world with regard to this world... the next world with regard to the next world... and whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect: the perception of that has ceased to exist.

"Absorbed in this way, the excellent thoroughbred of a man is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:


'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is
dependent on which
you're absorbed.'"
Here you have an instance of absorbtion in dependence on the Unmade state; where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:17 am, edited 5 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:30 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:47 pm
This seems to be a perennial topic. I would be wary of reading too much into viññanam anidassanam, which only seems to appear in a couple of places in the canon:

viewtopic.php?t=12510
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10017#p153428
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/13 ... E2%80%99t/
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/wh ... -mn49/7476

:heart:
Mike
I don't disagree per se but i want to comment

Even tho it only appears in a couple places in that exact wording whenever it does appears it has immense importance. Afterall it is the thing that makes the Buddhas superior to Brahma. Overlooking Unmade one overlooks the Dhamma as beings have done for myriads of aeons. Not overlooking Unmade one does not overlook Vinnanam Anidassanam.

Even gods don't understand it so of course men will struggle understanding it and will argue about it's meaning perennially, those who hold wrong views are unable to understand it.

That is why one should cultivate four frames of reference, seven factors of enlightenment and above all the five faculties to become the person superlatively absorbed and see for oneself with proper discernment the Unmade state.

It is beyond conjecture so one should focus on investigating The Made for disenchantment and dispassion, thus conditioning cessation and direct knowing of the Unmade. Until one attains the path and experiences cessation on will remain perplexed and will speculate;
How is it? Is it? Is it not? Is it neither is nor isn't? How is something neither is nor isn't? Is it darkness? Is it void? Is it a nothingness? Is it beautiful? Does beautiful apply? How is this non-persistence? How is it happiness? How is it the highest? How is it not experienced? How is it experienced? Is it neither is nor isn't experienced? Is it static? Is it not-static? Does static apply?

One time is enough to settle all this perplexity and make it as clear as clear can be.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16496
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:16 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:30 am
Even tho it only appears in a couple places in that exact wording whenever it does appears it has immense importance. Afterall it is the thing that makes the Buddhas superior to Brahma. ....
Isn't that even more reason for not thinking that it is particularly significant - that it turns up in these smackdown contests with Brahma?

:heart:
Mike

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:08 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:16 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:30 am
Even tho it only appears in a couple places in that exact wording whenever it does appears it has immense importance. Afterall it is the thing that makes the Buddhas superior to Brahma. ....
Isn't that even more reason for not thinking that it is particularly significant - that it turns up in these smackdown contests with Brahma?

:heart:
Mike
Whether it is a smackdown contest is a moot point but it is clear that the Buddha therein is explaining what makes an Ariya superior to any other being in Samsara, i think Ariyan Knowledge is very significant and takes the central stage in this doctrine, i am quite sure you would agree.

As i said i think that it is important not to get wrong ideas or form fixated views on the matter which is beyond conjecture and to stay devoted to the investigation of the Made because that is what will conditioned dispassion and cessation.

As for not thinking about that which is beyond conjecture, suspending one's views and submitting to development of the frames of reference, the factors and the faculties whilst keeping an open mind, seems to be the optimal approach to me.

Many people do form wrong views tho and in that case it is very good if someone was to point it out to them so that they can abandon that view. However if someone was to say "You are wrong in your interpretation because of x,y and z" to a person fixated in wrong view, the person with wrong view will probably get angry, not accept it and might even revile the person pointing out the flaws saying "you are the one who doesn't understand this Dhamma".

Therefore it is very good to realize and teach this Dhamma but the teaching and pointing out flaws in other people's interpretation is for the most part a burdensome endeavour.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2268
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:33 pm

This is not sakkaya-ditthi at all beause this is not a heaven or a world wherein a soul lives, nor is it a soul of a being or a state of a being
We go in circles.

Main question is very simple: either you are an eternalist (if you think this is a "state of arahant after death"), or you introduce additional useless substances to Dhamma Path - because it matters absolutely nothing in terms of personal khandhas cessation. 8-)

Well, it makes sense if your Dhamma Path is actually Brahmanism, where this "cosmic consiousness" is Universal Brahma and all living beings "return to True Self which is Brahma". But again, this is still eternalism.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:21 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:33 pm
This is not sakkaya-ditthi at all beause this is not a heaven or a world wherein a soul lives, nor is it a soul of a being or a state of a being
We go in circles.

Main question is very simple: either you are an eternalist (if you think this is a "state of arahant after death"), or you introduce additional useless substances to Dhamma Path - because it matters absolutely nothing in terms of personal khandhas cessation. 8-)

Well, it makes sense if your Dhamma Path is actually Brahmanism, where this "cosmic consiousness" is Universal Brahma and all living beings "return to True Self which is Brahma". But again, this is still eternalism.
You keep giving me these silly choices, like;
1. Either i am eternalist
2. I have introduced stuff that does not matter

How about #3 where you can neither comprehend nor disprove what i am saying?

I question how seriously you are taking the Dhamma when you call wrong view when you can't even tell if i am eternalist or not. I think a good rule of thumb if you have to ask then it is probably better to be silent.

Again i did not introduce anything, The Buddha did in DN11, Ud 8.2, Ud 8.3, MN 49, MN 115 i merely explained them in line with the commy.

Your interpretation of these discourses has not been rational and likely directly contradicted by MN49, as you are relying on one translator and btw here is Horner's translation;
I, Brahma, knowing the all to be the all, to that extent knowing that which is not reached by the allness of the all, do not think: ‘It is all, (of self) in (regard to) all, (of self) as all, all is mine“. I do not salute the all. Thus again I, Brahmā, am not merely on an exact equality with you as regards super-knowledge; how could I be lower, since I am indeed greater that you?”
3v1
Here is a Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation from 1995;
25. "'The consciousness that makes no showing,
Nor has to do with finiteness,
Not claiming being with respect to all:513
that is not commensurate with the earthness of earth, that is not
commensurate with the waterness of water...[330]...that is not
commensurate with the allness of all.'
commensurate
adjective: commensurate

corresponding in size or degree; in proportion.
"salary will be commensurate with age and experience"
synonyms: equivalent, equal, corresponding, correspondent, comparable, proportionate, proportional; More
antonyms: disproportionate
4v1?
Here is a translation by SV;
«Сознание непроявляющееся,

Безграничное, сияющее повсюду—не относится к земельности земли, не относится к водянистости воды… …не относится к Всеобщности Всего».
5v1?

I am sure there are more and even if one translates it "does not part-take in the all" it does not mean that your inrepretation is correct because does not part-take can be explained as outside of all or not included in all, which is actually the more natural interpretation.

Question to you;
Is there anything that is not included in All? If there is not then how can the end of All be discerned?
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2268
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:24 pm

How about #3 where you can neither comprehend nor disprove what i am saying?
I've already disproved what you are saying (concerning the "usefulness" of "eternal mind"), but you keep saying exactly the same thing as you did before that - and since we start going in circles, discussion is closed by fact. It's up to reader to decide who is right 8-)
i merely explained them in line with the commy.
Commy doesn't explain it as you do, btw.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:48 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:24 pm
How about #3 where you can neither comprehend nor disprove what i am saying?
I've already disproved what you are saying (concerning the "usefulness" of "eternal mind"), but you keep saying exactly the same thing as you did before that - and since we start going in circles, discussion is closed by fact. It's up to reader to decide who is right 8-)
where did you supposedly disproved the usefulness? also you are making a strawman argument calling it "eternal mind" for i never explained it as such.
Zom wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:24 pm
i merely explained them in line with the commy.
Commy doesn't explain it as you do, btw.
Proof? For Afaik;

The phase viññanam anidassanam has been explained by the pali attakattha and tika. Suan Lu zwa, a Burmese pali scholar writes:

"Tattha viññatabbanti "Viññanam" nibbanassetam namam,.."

"There, to be known specially, so (it is) "Viññanam". This is the name of nibbana."

And Kevatta Sutta Tika further explains the phrase "viññatabbanti" as follows:

"Viññatabbanti visitthena ñatabbam, ñanuttamena ariyamaggañanena paccakkhato janitabbanti attho, tenaha "nibbanassetam namam"ti."

"(To be known specially) means to be extraordinarily known. The meaning is 'to be known in the sense of realization by ultimate wisdom, by noble path wisdom'". Therefore, (the commentator) stated that 'This is the name of nibbana'" Therefore, the term 'Viññanam' in the line of the original Pali verse "Viññanam anidassanam, anantam sabbatopabham .." does not refer to consciousness, the usual meaning of viññanam.
In fact, the same verse includes the following two lines "Ettha namañca rupañca, asesam uparujjhati
Viññanassa nirodhena, etthetam uparujjhati'ti". "Here (in nibbana), nama as well as rupa ceases without remainder. By ceasing of consciousness, nama as well as rupa ceases here." Nibbana does not become a sort of consciousness just because one of its Pali names happens to be Viññanam. In English language, the term 'object' can have different meanings. For example, the term 'object' in visual object has no relation to
the term 'object' in my object of studting Pali.""
In the Mahāvihāra's understanding viññāṇaṃ does not mean consciousness in this context. Instead, it is defined as viññātabbaṃ, a verbal derivative that can be taken as a noun ('that which must be cognized') or an adjective ('to be cognized', 'must be cognized'). If we take it as a noun, then the famous line viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ will be translated, "the thing that must be cognized, that is unseeable, without end, all-illuminating." Taking it as an adjective qualifying anidassana (well-attested in the Suttas as a synonym of nibbāna), we get, "The Unseeable that must be cognized, that is without end, that is all-illuminating".

Either way, there seems to be no reason to doubt that the four terms in this passage are being used exactly as they are used elsewhere in the Suttas, i.e., as designations for nibbāna. The unlikelihood of the viññāṇaṃ in viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ referring to consciousness is evident from the last two lines of the same verse:

ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati
viññāṇassa nirodhena, etthetaṃ uparujjhatī ti

Here (in nibbana), name and matter cease without remainder;
Through the cessation of consciousness, these [name and matter] cease here.

One is of course at liberty to discard the Mahāvihārins' interpretation and substitute one's own pet theory, as numerous other modern scholars have done with this much remarked phrase. However, given the extreme rarity of the phrase, and the fact that it occurs only in verse (where it's normal for there to be more flexibility, liberality and ambiguity in the use of language), it would be rash to claim that it offers strong evidence that early Buddhism held nibbāna to be some kind of consciousness. One would need to consider first whether such a view would accord with the Buddha's general teaching on consciousness as attested in many hundreds of prose Suttas.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index. ... nidassanam
Apparently you don't answer questions so at least show me where Pali commentary says that Vinnanam Anidassanam does not refer to the Unmade State.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2268
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:11 pm

where did you supposedly disprove it the usefulness?
Starting from here. But for some strange reason (I think this is just a denial, unwillingness to accept a mistake) you can't understand an obvious thing that a particular phenomenon's cessation can be easily observed (fire simile), and as I've already said, personal arahant khandhas is the particular phenomenon, and thus can be easily observed inside samsara and on dependence on samsara. No need to introduce additional mystic stuff for it.
Proof?
Your argument - your proof. So far you haven't shown it. I prefer to believe scholar monks who say that nowhere in Pali Canon or Commentaries nibbana is equated with some kind of vinnyana. Actually, if that was the case, Buddha would have directly say that. But he haven't.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:16 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:11 pm
where did you supposedly disprove it the usefulness?
Starting from here. But for some strange reason (I think this is just a denial, unwillingness to accept a mistake) you can't understand an obvious thing that a particular phenomenon's cessation can be easily observed, and as I've already said, personal arahant khandhas is the particular phenomenon, and thus can be easily observed inside samsara and on dependence on samsara. No need to introduce additional mystic stuff for it.
Proof?
Your argument - your proof. So far you haven't shown it. I prefer to believe scholar monks who say that nowhere in Pali Canon or Commentaries nibbana is equated with some kind of vinnyana. Actually, if that was the case, Buddha would directly say that. But he didn't.
wamp wamp
show me where i've commited a logical fallacy and i'll ship you $50 for your effort
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 55 guests