Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Zom
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom »

Baseless accusations, for i explained how consciousness is not the same thing as consciosness unestablished. I also explained how consciousness associated with contact is of six kinds.
This explanation is incorrect. Please read MN 38. View that nibbana = consiousness is eternalism.


Sitting to one side, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Is there, venerable sir, any consciousness that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself?”

“Bhikkhu, there is no consciousness that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself.”


(from SN 22.98)
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by User1249x »

Zom wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:01 pm
Baseless accusations, for i explained how consciousness is not the same thing as consciosness unestablished. I also explained how consciousness associated with contact is of six kinds.
This explanation is incorrect. Please read MN 38. View that nibbana = consiousness is eternalism.


Sitting to one side, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Is there, venerable sir, any consciousness that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself?”

“Bhikkhu, there is no consciousness that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself.”


(from SN 22.98)
consciousness in this doctrine is defined as six classes of consciousness and has namarupa as it's supporting condition and this consciousness is impermanent. Vinnana Anidassanam is without duration, without supporting conditions and is stable, boundless, illuminous all around. These are different concepts.
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by User1249x »

So you can compare yourself these two concept and tell me if you really think i am talking about the same concept here;
X - conditioned by namarupa and is a condition for namarupa, impremanent, arises and ceases, diversified.
Y - unconditioned and is unfit as a condition for Not-Y,vform has no footing and namarupa is totally brought to an end. Does not arise, has no duration, singleness.

Clearly these two Dhammas are very different, so i have to assume you are not reading my posts carefully if at all. Much like another person here who constantly accuses me of annihilation based on one word you also seem to base your argument on one word but are accusing me of eternalism.

I offered you the game so you are welcome to go ahead and disprove Vinnana Anidassanam having the same referent as The base where neither fire, water, air or wind gaining a footing and is neither of the formless dimensions [Nibbaba]... However you merely saying it is wrong does not make it false even if you were an authority and afaik all of the pali commentary is on my side as well.
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by User1249x »

Furthermore if you really don't like the translation; "Consciousness without a feature" one can use "Consciousness non-manifesting" which is probably better but i am not sure which translation is word-perfect. However either way the expression of the verse still has the same referent because how you translate that single line of verse does not matter because the verse in it's entirety has so many clues that it could hardly be more explicit as to what it refers to. It could even be an X and one would still be able to figure out that it has naught to do with consciousness which is a condition and is conditioned by namarupa.
That’s where
water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of consciousness
Boundless, luminous all-round
compare to Nibbana Sutta;
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support.This, just this, is the end of stress.[/quote]
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

User1249x wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:54 am Furthermore if you really don't like the translation; "Consciousness without a feature" one can use "Consciousness non-manifesting" which is probably better but i am not sure which translation is word-perfect. However either way the expression of the verse still has the same referent because how you translate that single line of verse does not matter because the verse in it's entirety has so many clues that it could hardly be more explicit as to what it refers to. It could even be an X and one would still be able to figure out that it has naught to do with consciousness which is a condition and is conditioned by namarupa.
That’s where
water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of consciousness
Boundless, luminous all-round
compare to Nibbana Sutta;
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support.This, just this, is the end of stress.
[/quote]

Happy Birthday [name redacted by admin]!!!

:namaste:

and thank you for the clarifications!

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by User1249x »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:27 am
:thanks: and you are welcome :anjali:
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by pegembara »

[And then the factors of the Nobler life :]
The Ariyan Truths, the Faculties, the Powers,
The Seven Features of Awakening,
The Eightfold Way, leading to utmost good. (171)
I heard her words, her bidding I obeyed.
While 285 passed the first watch of the night there rose
Long memories of the bygone line of lives. (172)
While passed the second watch, the Heavenly Eye,
Purview celestial, I clarified.
While passed the last watch of the night, I burst
And rent aside the gloom of ignorance. (173)
Then, letting joy and blissful ease of mind
Suffuse my body, seven days I sat,
Ere stretching out cramped limbs I rose again.
Was it not rent indeed, that muffling mist? 286 (174)
That is post nibbanic bliss - not nibbana where nothing is felt.
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Robert123 »

That is post nibbanic bliss - not nibbana where nothing is felt.
Nibbana is also defined as the greatest pleasure. This begs the question if nothing is felt why is it defined as such.

There are feelings coming from contact (formations) and perhaps there are feelings not defined as feelings because they do not arise from contact--nibbana.

With regard to “pleasure” translated in the following passage as “happiness” Saṁyutta Nikāya IV 228 states, “The Blessed One, friends, does not describe a state as included in happiness only with reference to pleasant feeling. But rather, friends, wherever happiness is found and in whatever way, the Tathagata describes that as included in happiness" (Bhīkkhu Bodhi, The Connected, 249). Buddhaghoṣa, commenting on this sutta, states: “Whether felt happiness or unfelt happiness is found, the Tathagata describes whatever is without suffering as happiness” (cited in Bhīkkhu Bodhi, The Connected, 1435, note 249).
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom »

consciousness in this doctrine is defined as six classes of consciousness and has namarupa as it's supporting condition and this consciousness is impermanent. Vinnana Anidassanam is without duration, without supporting conditions and is stable, boundless, illuminous all around. These are different concepts.
What you are actually describing is Soul .) That is, eternalistic wrong view.
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by User1249x »

Zom wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:58 am
consciousness in this doctrine is defined as six classes of consciousness and has namarupa as it's supporting condition and this consciousness is impermanent. Vinnana Anidassanam is without duration, without supporting conditions and is stable, boundless, illuminous all around. These are different concepts.
What you are actually describing is Soul .) That is, eternalistic wrong view.
You are apparently clueless as to what is a soul.

soul is without duration and supporting conditions? can a soul exist without a world wherein it exists?
"'Vinnanam Anidassanam,
endless, radiant all around,
has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.'
The only thing that does not part take in the allness of the all is
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,unevolving, without support.
Just because you say i hold wrong view does not make it so but you are surely in rude saying it without any proof and look at your analysis it is not even inconsistent or flawed, it is completely absent. I get it you don't think Vinnanam Anidassanam refers to the Unmade but Vinnanam Anidassanam being the Unmade is the most orthodox interpretation.
Last edited by User1249x on Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom »

soul is without duration and supporting conditions? can a soul exist without a world wherein it exists?
Precisely. In all eternalstic/annihilationistic theories Atta (soul) is an unconditioned part of a living being. Everything depends on conditions, but this thing is "always there" and does not change because it is not conditioned. True Self. This is what you are describing.
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by User1249x »

Zom wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:43 am
soul is without duration and supporting conditions? can a soul exist without a world wherein it exists?
Precisely. In all eternalstic/annihilationistic theories Atta (soul) is an unconditioned part of a living being. Everything depends on conditions, but this thing is "always there" and does not change because it is not conditioned. True Self. This is what you are describing.
You did not adress the second question, why not? Because souls go to heaven or exists in this world as part of a being. Therefore your "RV believes in a soul" is nonsense.

Here is a claim for you;
You can not debunk Vinnanam Anidassanam having Unmade as it's referent using logic but i can surely debunk any alternative interpretation that you come up with. So let's make a bet; if you can show by logical inference that Vinnana Anidassanam does not refer to the Unmade or are able to provide an alternative interpretation which i won't be able to debunk using rules of inference and the Sutta Pitaka i will stop posting and If you lose you stop posting. I am sure you don't want people posting wrong views here.

If you don't like the bet you are still welcome to substantiate your allegations otherwise you might be merely one of those who can neither understand nor disprove what i am saying, afterall it is impossible for a person with wrong view to recognize right view.
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by User1249x »

Zom wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:43 am
soul is without duration and supporting conditions? can a soul exist without a world wherein it exists?
Precisely. In all eternalstic/annihilationistic theories Atta (soul) is an unconditioned part of a living being. Everything depends on conditions, but this thing is "always there" and does not change because it is not conditioned. True Self. This is what you are describing.
you also did not adress "without duration", how can something without duration always be there?

If you are not going to provide extensive answers and are only able to defeat strawman arguments then you probably should not make so much noise.
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom »

Because souls go to heaven or exists in this world as part of a being.
I'm not talking about christian concept of a soul. Please see what Buddha described as "atta". This is just what you are defending here, while Buddha strongly criticized that. And again, if you say that this your "super-vinnyana" does not exist in this world as a part of a being, then here is a question for you: how it is connected with a particular arahant? If it is not a part of him, and does not exist in him, then why bother speaking about it at all? If this is the case, then it has nothing to do with Dhamma, nothing to do with enlightenment - just some useless thing not worth even mentioning. 8-)
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Spiny Norman »

Zom wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:58 am
consciousness in this doctrine is defined as six classes of consciousness and has namarupa as it's supporting condition and this consciousness is impermanent. Vinnana Anidassanam is without duration, without supporting conditions and is stable, boundless, illuminous all around. These are different concepts.
What you are actually describing is Soul .) That is, eternalistic wrong view.
No, it's describing a consciousness which is unconditioned, and therefore likely associated with Nibbana ( also unconditioned ).

This is nothing to do with "souls", which is a :strawman: here.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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