Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

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rightviewftw
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:23 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:54 pm
all other scholar monks
Now you speak for all scholar monks? I know scholar monks who disagree with that.

You are free to cuddle up with your pet-theory if it helps you sleep at night but this dialogue is getting similar to the ones i tend to have with DooDoot and Cappuccino so i am done lost all interest.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:30 pm

I know scholar monks who disagree with that.
World-known Eternalist Thanissaro, yes, I know 8-) Quite strange how some learned buddhists end up with being brahmanists :roll:

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Volo
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Volo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:33 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:19 pm
no this is not a quotation from the Sutta but the question is analogue to the question answered by the Buddha in the mn59;
Ok. But it is confusing, it is better if we don't try to fill the "gaps" and think up for the Buddha.

rightviewftw
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:36 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:30 pm
I know scholar monks who disagree with that.
World-known Eternalist Thanissaro, yes, I know 8-)
I know others.. There are even references itt and none of them are to Thanissaro it is the first time his name is mentioned ITT.

I really struggle to see the appeal of this atheistic Buddhism nor do i see it leading anywhere. It is illogical and incomplete.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:40 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:33 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:19 pm
no this is not a quotation from the Sutta but the question is analogue to the question answered by the Buddha in the mn59;
Ok. But it is confusing, it is better if we don't try to fill the "gaps" and think up for the Buddha.
Of course it is confusing but you are rude in accusing me of trying to fill gaps and think up for the Buddha. I am not thinking for the Buddha nor am i filling in the gaps, to me it is clear as clear can be and i answered your question in what i think is a reasonable manner.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Volo
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Volo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:53 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:40 pm
Of course it is confusing but you are rude in accusing me of trying to fill gaps and think up for the Buddha. I am not thinking for the Buddha nor am i filling in the gaps, to me it is clear as clear can be and i answered your question in what i think is a reasonable manner.
First you stated what Buddha is describing as illumination, then you addmited that this is your extrapolation of another question. I think you are accusing yourself.

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:02 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:54 pm
Nibbana is not viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t.
The deathless element is not consciousness.

However, Nirvana isn't annihilation either.

rightviewftw
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:02 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:53 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:40 pm
Of course it is confusing but you are rude in accusing me of trying to fill gaps and think up for the Buddha. I am not thinking for the Buddha nor am i filling in the gaps, to me it is clear as clear can be and i answered your question in what i think is a reasonable manner.
First you stated what Buddha is describing as illumination, then you addmited that this is your extrapolation of another question. I think you are accusing yourself.
For all you know he might well be thus describing it as illumination and i am correct.

I did not admit to anything for i did nothing worth admitting to, i simply answered your question in my own words and as i saw fit based on my experience and understanding of the Sutta Pitaka, i did not claim that it was a Sutta answer. Further i informed you that the question you posed is nowhere answered in the Sutta Pitaka and provided you with an analogue. You are welcome btw and i will surely think twice before i bother answering any of your questions in the future.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:07 pm

Eternal ism is about unchanging consciousness.
Annihilation ism is about destroying consciousness.

Buddhism is at once both, neither.
Because consciousness changes, yet is not destroyed.
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

atipattoh
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by atipattoh » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:39 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:45 pm
Vinnanam Anidassanam,endless, radiant all around,has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.
I'm trying to make a guess here.

You do not seem to fall within brahmanical atman, not the opposite either. Your definition of "Vinnanam Anidassanam" seems to mean exit from 'dynamic worlds Order system'; out of Order into dis-Order.

Strange is that, you do not define it as Chaos either; but rather a bridging of the two. Atman(s) within Chaos.

Something like vinnana with rupa that is more fine than fine rupa realm being; but without nama. Sounds very close to Taoism, escape through "shattered infinitude of space", yours is probably something like "shattered sunnata".
Am i still missing anthing?

Deja vu! Had that in 2010; almost forgotten this part of my life.

rightviewftw
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:23 am

atipattoh wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:39 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:45 pm
Vinnanam Anidassanam,endless, radiant all around,has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.
I'm trying to make a guess here.

You do not seem to fall within brahmanical atman, not the opposite either. Your definition of "Vinnanam Anidassanam" seems to mean exit from 'dynamic worlds Order system'; out of Order into dis-Order.

Strange is that, you do not define it as Chaos either; but rather a bridging of the two. Atman(s) within Chaos.

Something like vinnana with rupa that is more fine than fine rupa realm being; but without nama. Sounds very close to Taoism, escape through "shattered infinitude of space", yours is probably something like "shattered sunnata".
Am i still missing anthing?

Deja vu! Had that in 2010; almost forgotten this part of my life.
I am not sure what you mean by chaos so i am not sure. I don't find order/dis-order dichotomy to be applicable because the term order implies order of parts, arrangement of multiplicity, whereas non-objectification is a singleness, objectification is manifold thus chaos and order apply exclusively to the realm of objectification as i understand it.

Therefore i am explaining the non-objectification when i talk about Vinnam Anidassanam, whereas the world and existence only goes as far as objectification goes and cessation of objectification is the end of the world. Wherein world is that in the world through which one perceives and conceives of the world; eye, intellect, nose, tongue, ear, body.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

atipattoh
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by atipattoh » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:40 am

How does singleness defined, without perceiving and conceived one of this six?
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:23 am
[.....Wherein world is that in the world through which one perceives and conceives of the world; eye, intellect, nose, tongue, ear, body.
This singleness that you mention, if you do not refer to atman, are you referring to ekaggata?

(as i understand in Taoism, chaos is way before order, objectification does not apply prior to order)

rightviewftw
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:10 am

atipattoh wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:40 am
How does singleness defined, without perceiving and conceived one of this six?
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:23 am
[.....Wherein world is that in the world through which one perceives and conceives of the world; eye, intellect, nose, tongue, ear, body.
This singleness that you mention, if you do not refer to atman, are you referring to ekaggata?
I am referring to this ;
There is that base, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support.[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Ekaggata is a jhana factor of absorbtion, they are not the same.

I am not too excited about explaining it because that Dhamma is beyond conjecture and is to be directly discerned so it is far easier to explain what it is not rather than explaining what it is.

Singleness is just that, a singleness. Multiplicity would be expressed as; "X, Y & Z" ie "There is Seeing therefore there is the Eye, The Seen and the occurence of Seeing" whereas a singleness would be expressed by a single symbol which was antithetical, incompatible and unrelated to any other truth or reality
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

atipattoh
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by atipattoh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:40 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:10 am
I am not too excited about explaining it because that Dhamma is beyond conjecture and is to be directly discerned so it is far easier to explain what it is not rather than explaining what it is.
Since you are not too excited, so I took priority to settle other things first; before putting forward my view. And I'm trying to locate one sutta that mention of about no-footing of namarupa, and that the deva praise lord Buddha, yet they do not understand what The Buddha was meditating upon. Anyway fail to locate it.

This post is also to answer my own question why would there be “āyatanaṃ” in Ud8.1, my mistake to wrongly classified upper statement as cessation, it should be description for Jhana phenomena of an arhat that later take cessation as “object”.

In a post in suttacentral
Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ is a description of conciousness that is kind of "neutral", as the sensual craving is suspended, ie. Jhana.
Here, I mentioned neutral, is only a description; it did not means that there was a consciousness. Perhaps it is completely wrong to say that it is neutral.
General taking of “anidassanaṃ” is not-seened; another way of saying, is disappearing. If you take a look at this post on Ekaggata, your take of description for “Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ” is Jhana consciousness at loop 0. But if you look at consciousness in Jhana, top-down from loop 0 to loop 5; the sutta anidassanaṃ in Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ is referring to “Viññāṇaṃ” at loop 4->5; from disappearing in loop 1 till vanished in loop 5; that, consciousness in loop 3 Jhana will still has to take cessation as “object”.
Ancient bhikkhu has already tried to explain that, you can see in A Manual of Abhidhamma section 9_57, by Narada Mahà Thera, , it mentions
When such a person wishes to attain to Nirodhasamapatti, he first attains to the first jhana and, emerging from which, he meditates on the transiency, sorrowfulness, and soullessness of conditioned states found in that particular jhana. Likewise, he attains, in order, to the remaining jhanas and meditates in the same way until the Arupa-Jhana of ‘Nothingness’.

Emerging from this jhana, he makes the following four resolutions:—
…..

After making these resolutions, he attains to the last Arupajhana of ‘Neither Perception nor Non-Perception’ and remains in that state for two javana thought-moments. Immediately after he attains to Nirodha-samapatti when his stream of consciousness is temporarily suspended.
When an Arhat is “alive”, it is said consciousness is temporarily suspended, therefore at parinibbana, consciousness vanished!

Within the same post, has these
What exactly is no footing, I don't know! Imagine when ekaggata snap; perhaps it is the split moment of this "phantom” of vinnana "getting lost without namarupa"! Which means, the constant flux of self is a delusion?
It was a mistake of mine to phrased it wrongly, it would be better to include another inverted comma for getting lost; “getting lost” does not apply, consciousness is just not present.
Why “don't know”? When one try to objectify it, that is wrong. In the sutta that I could not find on
“ don't understand”, no-footing appear to be the center stage, but in that sutta, I would say “don't understand” is the center stage. Essentially, not to objectify is the theme in that sutta; don't know!
(Mike, can help to locate that sutta? Thanks!)

Thanks, both you and chownah, that lead me to revisit the word ekodibhāva in a post in suttacentral. I was wrong looking into the matter, putting “eko” at the center stage (one sided emphasis) as the topic was started with ekodi; eko+bhava, looking at both, then only it is balance.

Looking at the frame of loop 1 to loop 5 in ekaggata post, and that ekodibhāva appears in second Jhana; if I were to take second Jhana as the fruition Jhana and map that with Loop 2, what is not present in Jhana loop 2 is element of infinitude of space. So the one that is being suspended out of the loop is space element.
Is unification suitable for ekodibhāvaṃ? I think it is going to be problematic. Unification seems to objectify the phenomena, and it is going to be conflicting the nature of vanishing, one-out from a loop then on the next; is not unite nor bring together, as it is more of a derivation process. What meditator is trying to do is essentially removing the sine and cosine part of it, so that derivatives can work. For the best word for ekodi and ekodibhāva, language is never my cup of tea. But then I would be more onto interpreting ekodi to mean “ferreting out One by One” and taking bhāva as just phenomena.

On chownah's question, I would say, end of suffering is the “direction”, cessation is the “object”. But need to figure out; is patiloma arupa mixed or seperated from Jhana? This term in Manual of Abhidhamma
Arupa-Jhana of ‘Nothingness’...
Arupajhana of ‘Neither Perception nor Non-Perception’

should gives an idea of what it is.

rightviewftw
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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:46 am

atipattoh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:40 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:10 am
I am not too excited about explaining it because that Dhamma is beyond conjecture and is to be directly discerned so it is far easier to explain what it is not rather than explaining what it is.
Since you are not too excited, so I took priority to settle other things first; before putting forward my view. And I'm trying to locate one sutta that mention of about no-footing of namarupa, and that the deva praise lord Buddha, yet they do not understand what The Buddha was meditating upon. Anyway fail to locate it.
you will always find that sutta if you only remember to google "superlative man" :)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Not too excited was an understatement on my part, the more accurate expression is "horrifically & utterly discouraged".

I will add what is probably my last 2 cents on this topic anyway.

What i would point out is a notion that also appears in commentaries which points to the difference between the word [concept] and reality of that which is conceptually objectified by the word.

Nibbana if taken to be the referent of the ayatana defined in the Ud 8.1 is a unique concept, is a truth because it is a possibility and represents a fundamentally integral part of a comperhensive model of the all and the basis for all in particular.

The conceptual model is a representation of the system and comes into being within the very system which it models.

Reality is thus self-modelling, self-directing and self-configuring. The world is explained as whatever in the world through which you perceive the world and conceive the world (sn35.116) therefore when talking about "free will" it should be obvious that whatever will arises in the world it is not imposed from beyond the world or "from the outside" and to that extent the world and all that is of the world inherits this quality of autonomy.

"Reality is thus self-modelling, self-directing and self-configuring" and is essentially a conceptual expression of underlying conceptual premises and this is one way to think about Dependent Origination. Like a coherent projection of a story without a beginning based on underlying premises.

Now given the self-modelling, self-directing and self-configuring nature of reality what becomes a possibility is configuration for the extinguishing of the world, for the non-arising and non-directing.

One who achieves this is said to abide independent of neither wind, fire, water nor wind, neither this world nor beyond and even Brahma don't know dependent on which it is he is absorbed.

If "X = where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support "

and "X=untrue"

then Self-Configuration into non-arising would not be possible and there would be no path for self-configuration leading to non-arising but because "X=true" there is self-configuration for non-arising, there is the escape.

If there is the self-configuring system and a model of the self-configuring system arises within it, with the cessation of the self-configuring system
and expression the model of the system is also extinguished, thus the concept of "X = where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support"
goes out of existence along with all other objectification or conceptualization whichever you prefer.

To summarize, what i am getting at is that when a language goes extinct it's referents remain unaffected as truth and realities. In a similar way with the extinction of objectification there is non-objectification which can not be objectified obviously. What we would refer to as the experiential reality can in many ways be taught of as a language or expression of and based on premises. Thus if the reality is a language, then extinction of that language would only leave the truth and reality of non-objectification, unaffected :)
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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