Are teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw questionable?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User1249x
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Re: Are teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw questionable?

Post by User1249x »

Thanks auto. I will post some text on fruition from the manual of insight.
When practicing path-oriented insight, the different stages of insight
knowledge develop in sequence. When one’s insight knowledge of equanimity
toward phenomena is mature, the higher path that one has aspired
to arises. It is not possible that a fruition consciousness that one has not
aspired to will arise. However, if insight knowledge of equanimity toward
stages of insight knowledge | 449
phenomena is not yet mature enough to attain a higher path, one will
just continue to experience equanimity toward phenomena over and over
again. In this case, it may be that one’s mind is actually inclined to experience
the fruition that one has already attained [rather than the next path].
Therefore, if one is practicing insight in order to attain a higher path and
fruition, one should make a firm resolution not to become absorbed for a
specified number of days in the fruition that one has already attained and
be careful not to allow one’s mind to incline in that direction.
Determining the duration of the attainment
Friend, there are three conditions for the persistence of the
signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs and
attention to the signless element, and the prior determination
[of its duration].
If a noble one wishes to become absorbed in the attainment of fruition,
he or she should determine a time limit for the attainment in advance by
resolving, “May the fruition attainment persist for such and such a period
of time.” This period of time may be five minutes, ten minutes, fifteen minutes,
half an hour, one hour, two hours, or longer. While practicing, however,
one should just continue observing phenomena without exerting too
much effort or giving further thought to this resolve. When the insight
knowledge of equanimity toward phenomena matures, the mind then
becomes absorbed in the cessation of conditioned phenomena for the time
period that was previously determined.
... if the insight knowledge of arising and passing away is the first to
occur while you are noting phenomena, it will soon be followed by successively
higher insight knowledges, up through equanimity toward phenomena,
which is the most subtle and best knowledge. When that knowledge
is strong enough, the mind will shift its attention to nibbāna, the cessation
of all conditioned phenomena, just as before, and the mental process of
fruition will appear.
If you do not determine the period for this fruition absorption in
advance, it may last for only a few moments or for quite a long time—five,
ten, or fifteen minutes, half an hour, or an hour. The commentaries say that
it can even last for a whole day and night, or for whatever period you have
predetermined. These days, too, we can find meditators with strong concentration
and sharp insight who are able to become absorbed in fruition
for long periods of time, such as one, two, or three hours, or a period that
they have predetermined, as described in the commentaries. Even when
there is no need to do so, if you predetermine that the fruition absorption
should end, you will easily emerge. In the case of such long periods of
absorption, however, there may be intervals of reflection. If you note such
reflection four or five times, you will become absorbed in fruition again. In
this way, you may experience fruition absorption for hours.
During fruition absorption, the mind is fully absorbed in its object,
nibbāna, the cessation of all conditioned phenomena. It does not perceive
anything else. Nibbāna is completely different from the conditioned mental
and physical phenomena and conceptual objects that belong to this
world or any other. So you cannot perceive or remember this world (i.e.,
your own body) or any other during fruition absorption, and you are free
from all thoughts. Even if there are obvious objects around to see, hear,
smell, touch, and so on, you will not be aware of any of them. Your bodily
posture will also be firm and stable while you are absorbed, even if for long
periods. For example, if you are sitting when you become absorbed in fruition,
you will maintain that sitting posture without swaying, slouching, or
changing it in any way.
I don't know... On one hand it sounds entirely plausible for a dry-insight worker to attain this because he could attain the initial path and consequent absorbtion. On the other hand there are discourses like this;
[1] [The Ven. Moggallaana has described how, with the aid of the Buddha, he has passed through all the jhaanas[2] right up to the "sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception."]

"Then, friends, I thought: 'The signless concentration of the heart, the signless concentration of the heart, they say — now what is that?'

"Then I thought: 'In this a monk, paying no attention to any distinguishing signs,[3] enters on and dwells in that concentration of the heart which is without signs. This is called "The signless concentration of heart."'

"Then, friends, paying no attention to any distinguishing signs, I entered on and dwelt in that concentration of the heart which is without signs. But as I dwelt thus,[4] the consciousness-conforming-to-signs arose.[5]

"And then, friends, the Blessed One came to me by his powers[6] and said: 'Moggallaana, Moggallaana, Brahman,[7] do not slacken off in the signless concentration, make your mind steady, make the mind one-pointed, concentrate your mind in the signless concentration!'

"And after that, friends, paying no attention to any distinguishing signs, I entered on and dwelt in the signless concentration of the heart.

"Now, friends, if anyone were to truly declare: 'Through the Teacher's compassion the disciple gained great super-knowledge,'[8] he could rightly declare this of me."
Which make me question just how much concentration is actually required for this attainment.
There is also this discourse;
"So, monks, a young man of good family leaves the world, but he is greedy for sense pleasures, with fierce passions, with hate in his heart, corruptly motivated,[3] lacking in mindfulness, inattentive, unconcentrated, scatter-brained, his faculties uncontrolled. Just as, monks, a funeral-torch lit at both ends and smeared in the middle with dung is no good as fuel either in the village or in the forest — that is how I would describe that man, who has lost his home and wealth without satisfying the demands of the recluse life. There are, monks, three unskilled ways of thought: thoughts of lust, thoughts of ill-will, thoughts of hurting. And these three unskilled states disappear utterly in him whose heart is well established in the four foundations of mindfulness, or who practices concentration on the signless.[4]

"Indeed, monks, this concentration on the signless is greatly to be commended; the concentration on the signless, if developed and frequently practiced, is of great fruit, of great profit.
I don't really know what to think of it and i guess the best way to settle this is to try it out for oneself.

Another thing i want to say is that I really don't think the Mahasi Lineage can claim copyright or ownership of mental noting or the Satipatthana practice because it is quite explicitly explained in the Sutta and if that is not distinctively Mahasi Method then what else remains but minor variations? Therefore i don't really think that by questioning some of the teachings i am at risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Also as a matter of fact i have been practicing what would be considered Mahasi method since i learned the Dhamma and was practicing Anapanasati before that so i am by all means trying to practice Mahasi Method and could need some guidance but I don't really want to disclose the details publicly.
budo
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Re: Are teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw questionable?

Post by budo »

@[name redacted by admin],

my current position is that dry insight will take you up non-return, and after that supernormal knowledge and vision aided by the fourth jhanas are required. One can still attain jhanas before hand like Udaka and Alara did, but they will not get supernormal knowledge and vision.

This portion from mn85 emphasized below, tells me that stilling inner desire is the first requirement, once that is done one is a non-returner who can attain supernormal vision leading to the destruction of defilements.

It is also quite clear that when you apply the 10 perceptions to metta or jhana, this leads to non-return. So I wouldn't even worry about stream-entry or once-return, just aim for stilling inner desire (non-return).

From MN85:
Suppose there was a green, sappy log, and it was lying in water. Then a person comes along with a drill-stick, thinking to light a fire and produce heat. What do you think, Prince? By drilling the stick against that green, sappy log lying in water, could they light a fire and produce heat?”

“No, sir. Why is that? Because it’s a green, sappy log, and it’s lying in the water. That person will eventually get weary and frustrated.”

“In the same way, there are ascetics and brahmins who don’t live withdrawn in body and mind from sensual pleasures. They haven’t internally given up or stilled desire, affection, stupefaction, thirst, and passion for sensual pleasures. Regardless of whether or not they feel painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings because of their efforts, they are incapable of knowledge and vision, of supreme awakening. This was the first example that occurred to me.

Then a second example occurred to me.

Suppose there was a green, sappy log, and it was lying on dry land far from the water. Then a person comes along with a drill-stick, thinking to light a fire and produce heat. What do you think, Prince? By drilling the stick against that green, sappy log on dry land far from water, could they light a fire and produce heat?”

“No, sir. Why is that? Because it’s still a green, sappy log, despite the fact that it’s lying on dry land far from water. That person will eventually get weary and frustrated.”

“In the same way, there are ascetics and brahmins who live withdrawn in body and mind from sensual pleasures. But they haven’t internally given up or stilled desire, affection, stupefaction, thirst, and passion for sensual pleasures. Regardless of whether or not they feel painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings because of their efforts, they are incapable of knowledge and vision, of supreme awakening. This was the second example that occurred to me.

Then a third example occurred to me.

Suppose there was a dried up, withered log, and it was lying on dry land far from the water. Then a person comes along with a drill-stick, thinking to light a fire and produce heat. What do you think, Prince? By drilling the stick against that dried up, withered log on dry land far from water, could they light a fire and produce heat?”

“Yes, sir. Why is that? Because it’s a dried up, withered log, and it’s lying on dry land far from water.” “In the same way, there are ascetics and brahmins who live withdrawn in body and mind from sensual pleasures. And they have internally given up and stilled desire, affection, stupefaction, thirst, and passion for sensual pleasures. Regardless of whether or not they feel painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings because of their efforts, they are capable of knowledge and vision, of supreme awakening. This was the third example that occurred to me. These are the three examples, which were neither supernaturally inspired, nor learned before in the past, that occurred to me.
User1249x
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Re: Are teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw questionable?

Post by User1249x »

budo wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:09 pm @[name redacted by admin],
my current position is that dry insight will take you up non-return, and after that supernormal knowledge and vision aided by the fourth jhanas are required. One can still attain jhanas before hand like Udaka and Alara did, but they will not get supernormal knowledge and vision.
You probably don't agree with this but I have no doubt that stream entry occurs more or less how Mahasi Sayadaw describes it and that the experience of cessation realizes the seeing with discernment, the timeless and sorrowless state in all of it's glory and that it is the full extent of knowledge and vision of the Dhamma.

I am only perplexed about that re-attainment thing and have read and heard a variety of different opinions.

Here are some texts i read, don't ask me where it is from for idk;
Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

Fruition Attainment, Phala-samåpatti

Issue of analysis: Can the ariyan who has not attained jhåna enter fruition
attainment, phala-samåpatti? (1

The conclusion regarding the issue of analysis: The ariyan who has not
attained jhåna is not able to enter fruition attainment.

The sources which support the conclusion of this issue:
1. Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sixes, Ch 1, § 9, Mahånåma.
2. Middle Length Sayings I, 44, Lesser Discourse of the Miscellany
(Cúlavedallasutta)
3. Paramatthadípaní, Commentary to the Udåna, Khuddaka Nikåya. Commentary to
Ch 1, Enlightenment.
4. Saddhammappakåsiní, Commentary to the Patisambhidåmagga, Path of
Discrimination, Khuddaka Nikåya.
5. Visuddhimagga, Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing
Understanding, and Ch XI, Description of Concentration, Conclusion, XI, 120:
The Benefits of Developing Concentration.
6. Paramattha Mañjúsa, Commentary to the Visuddhimagga (Mahå-tíka),
explanation about the benefit of concentration.
7. Såratthadípaní, subcommentary to the Vinaya, about Vijjå, Knowledge.

The sources which explain the reasons for this conclusion:
1. We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sixes, Ch 1, § 9, Mahånåma,
about six kinds of ³everminding² (anussati). The Sutta states that Mahånåma,
the Sakya asked the Buddha:

³Lord, the Ariyan disciple who has won the fruit (ågato phalo), grasped the
message (viññåta-såsano), what life lives he in abundance ?²(2
³Mahånåma, the Ariyan disciple who has won the fruit, grasped the message,
lives this life in abundance:
The Ariyan disciple, Mahånåma, is ever minding the Tathågata: ŒHe is the
Exalted One, arahant, fully enlightened, perfected in knowledge and way of
life, one well-gone, a knower of the worlds, none higher, a tamer of tamable
men, a teacher, the awake among devas and men, the Exalted One!¹ Mahånåma,
what time the Ariyan disiple minds the Tathågata, his heart is never
overwhelmed by passion, never overwhelmed by hatred, never overwhelmed by
infatuation; then, verily, is the way of his heart made straight because of
the Tathågata. And with his heart¹s ways straightened, Mahånåma, the Ariyan
disciple becomes zealous of the goal, zealous of Dhamma, wins the joy that
is linked to Dhamma (3 ; and of his joy zest (píti) is born; when his mind
is rapt in zest, his whole being becomes calm; calm in being, he experiences
ease; and of him that dwells at ease the heart is composed.
Mahånåma, of this Ariyan disciple it is said: Among uneven folk he lives
evenly; among troubled folk he lives untroubled; with the ear for Dhamma
won, he makes become the ever minding of the Buddha...²(4

Thus we see that the abiding (vihåra dhammas) of the ariyan disciple without
jhåna-attainment are the six Recollections, not fruition attainment.

Footnotes

1. When paññå has been developed to the degree that enlightenment can be
attained, lokuttara cittas, supramundane cittas experiencing nibbåna arise.
The magga-citta (path-consciousness), which is lokuttara kusala citta,
directly experiences nibbåna. When the magga-citta has fallen away, it is
immediately succeeded by its result, the phala-citta
(fruition-consciousness), which is lokuttara vipåkacitta, also experiencing
nibbåna. There are four stages of enlightenment and at each stage
defilements are eradicated by the magga-citta until they are all eradicated
at the fourth stage, the stage of the arahat. The magga-citta of a
particular stage of enlightenment arises only once in the cycle of birth and
death. However, the phala-citta can arise again later on during that life,
if enlightenment has been attained with lokuttara jhånacittas
(Visuddhimagga, Ch III-XII). Someone who has developed jhåna and acquired
³mastery² in jhåna (Visuddhimagga IV, 131) and also develops insight can
attain enlightenment with lokuttara jhånacitta, lokuttara citta accompanied
by jhåna-factors of one of the stages of jhåna. The phala-citta which is
accompanied by jhåna-factors can arise many times again during that life,
experiencing nibbåna. This attainment is called fruition-attainment,
phala-samåpatti.
Fruition attainment, phala-samåpatti, has been explained in the
³Visuddhimagga², Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing
Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot).
The text (Vis. XXIII, 6,7) stating: ³All ariyans can enter
fruition-attainment² can be misunderstood when we do not know the context.
People may erroneously think that all ariyans can attain
fruition-attainment. This is the subject of this Dhamma issue.
2. He lives in abundance, in Pali: bahulam viharåti. He abides with six
vihåra dhammas, six recollections: recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma,
the Sangha, síla, the devas and liberality.
3. Attha--vedaÿ, dhamma-vedaÿ. According to the Commentary, veda, which can
mean knowledge, is here píti-påmojjaÿ (rapture and delight) arising with
respect to aììha-kathå (explanation of the meaning) and påîi, which means
text. Attha is here translated as goal, but it can also mean: the meaning.
4. The same is said with regard to the other five recollections. With these
six Recollections as meditation subjects, the ariyan can attain access
concentration but not attainment concentration (appanå-samådhi) or jhåna.
His unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem conditions calm and happiness.
It is said that he lives in happiness, but, as we shall see, this is an
abiding different from the ³peaceful abiding², arana vihåra, which is
fruition-attainment.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/18141
Dhamma Issues, Fruition Attainment 2

2: The Visuddhimagga, Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing
Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot)
states: ³All ariyans can enter fruition-attainment². This is a conclusion
which refutes an argument of some teachers who had wrong view. They stated
that the sotåpanna (streamwinner) and the sakadågåmí (once-returner) are not
able to enter fruition-attainment, and that only the anågåmí (non-returner)
and the arahat could enter fruition-attainment. They argued that only the
anågåmí and the arahat could reach accomplishment in samådhi
(concentration). However, even the ordinary person (who is not an ariyan)
may reach accomplishment in samådhi, so that he may enter mundane
jhåna-attainment, jhåna-samåpatti (5. Thus, all ariyans, namely, the
sotåpanna, the sakadågåmí, the anågåmí and the arahat can enter
fruition-attainment, provided they are able to attain jhåna.

The Paramatthadípaní, Commentary to the Udåna, Khuddaka Nikåya, in the
Commentary to Ch 1, Enlightenment explains the term vimutti sukha, the
enjoyment of the happiness of freedom of the Buddha after his enlightenment.
(6

We read in the ³Middle Length Sayings² (I, 44), ³The Lesser Discourse of the
Miscellany² (Cúlavadallasutta) that the nun Dhammadinnå spoke with the
layfollower Visåkha about the abiding in fruition-attainment, explaining
cetovimutti, deliverance of mind (7. Thus, only the ariyan with
jhåna-attainment can enter fruition-attainment.

Footnotes:
5. Evenso, all ariyans who have accumulated the inclination to and the skill
in the development of samatha, can attain jhåna.
6. See the Translation by P. Masefield, p. 58-62, ³But in the present case
it is the Lord¹s liberation in terms of fruition that has nibbåna as its
object that is implied, for which reason ³Experiencing the bliss of
liberation (vimuttisukhapaìisaÿvedí) means: (he) was seated experiencing the
bliss of liberation, the bliss associated with fruition-attainment²...
The Buddha had attained all stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna.
7. Ceto-vimutti refers to a person who has developed insight and samatha to
the degree of jhåna. Dhammadinnå explains about the attainment of cessation
of perception and feeling, which can be reached only by a person with jhåna
attainment.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/18204
Dhamma Issues, 2, fruition-attainment, no. 4

The Commentary (of the Path of Discrimination) to the Chapter on ³Attainment
of Cessation² (Nirodha Samåpatti, Ch XXXIV) explains three classifications
of insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåna:

³There are three kinds of insight knowledge:
insight as comprehension of formations (sankhåra parigganhanaka vipassanå 9)
insight as fruition-attainment, phala-samåpatti vipassanå
insight as cessation-attainment, nirodha-samåpatti vipassanå 10
These three kinds of vipassanå are explained as different:
insight as comprehension of formations is paññå which understands
conditioned dhammas, sankhåra dhammas, that is, nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma;
insight as fruition-attainment and insight as cessation attainment are
degrees of insight knowledge which have as their aim to enter
fruition-attainment and progressively cessation-attainment. For the latter
two attainments it is necessary to be able to attain jhåna which is in
conformity with those attainments.²

4. Lokuttara cittas have been classified by way of forty (according to the
method of hundred and twentyone cittas), as different from the
classification by way of eight (according to the method of eightynine
cittas). They have been classified as forty in accordance with the levels of
the five jhånas 11. The reason for this is that there are two kinds of
ariyans: the ariyan who has lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhåna factors
(of the different stages of jhåna) and who can therefore enter
fruition-attainment, and the ariyan who has lokuttara cittas unaccompanied
by jhåna factors and who can therefore not enter fruition-attainment.
In what way is the ariyan who is a person with ³dry insight², sukkha
vipassaka (without jhåna attainment), different from the ariyan who is able
to attain jhåna, who is jhåna-låbhí (låbhí : possessing)? If the ariyan who
is without jhåna attainment could enter fruition-attainment, he would be the
same as the ariyan who is able to attain jhåna. There must be a difference
between the ariyan with dry insight and the ariyan with jhåna attainment,
who is jhåna låbhí.

footnotes:

9. Pariganhati means to comprehend. This knowledge comprehends the
conditioned realities, sankhåra dhammas as impermanent, dukkha, anattå.
10. Nirodha, cessation or extinction, is the temporary suspension of citta
and cetasikas. Only anågåmís and arahats who have mastery of rúpa-jhånas and
arúpa-jhånas can attain this.

Corrections and additions to Issue 2, no1:end of footnote 4: peaceful
abiding, arana vihara, which can lead to fruition-attainment.
Add to footnote 8 (of no 3): We read in the same section of the ³Path of
Discrimination², § 448: ³The first jhåna is an abiding without conflict...²
and so on with all the stages of jhåna.
Old footnote 9 is erased.
Probably it is a matter of having sufficient concentration, proper determinations or "strong vipassana", either way there is only one way to find out it seems.

Here is another excerpt from the Manual;
After determining a time period and wishing not to return to the previous
fruition before the period ends, simply note phenomena as usual. Then
the insight knowledges will arise in order, beginning with insight knowledge
of arising and passing away, and insights will develop in a manner similar
to that which led to the first path, rather than that which led to the first
fruition. [...] Even if you were formerly
able to enter fruition three or four times an hour, your insight knowledge
may now stagnate at the level of equanimity toward phenomena, because
it is not strong enough to progress to the next higher path knowledge. You
may remain in that condition for a long time, anywhere from one or two
days to months or years.
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Volo
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Re: Are teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw questionable?

Post by Volo »

User1249x wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:16 am Probably it is a matter of having sufficient concentration, proper determinations or "strong vipassana", either way there is only one way to find out it seems.
It might be indeed that mastery over jhāna is what determines ability to enter fruition attainment again. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi (MN 107, n. 1027) points that according to the Commentary it might be even the issue for the arahant:
MA identifies this “abiding” with the attainment of the fruit of arahantship, and explains that some arahants can enter fruition easily at any time while others must apply themselves diligently to the steps of practice to enter fruition.
User1249x
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Re: Are teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw questionable?

Post by User1249x »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:13 am Disparaging the Noble Ones creates obstructive kamma that precludes any further progress on the path until one asks for forgiveness.

This is not a threat. It is a warning.

Preparatory Stage

An additional rule is not to speak with contempt, in jest, or with malice to or about any of the noble ones who have attained states of sanctity. If you have done so, then personally apologize to him or her or make an apology through your meditation instructor. If in the past you have spoken contemptuously to a noble one who is at present unavailable or deceased, confess this offence to your meditation instructor or introspectively to yourself.

Sayādaw U Paṇḍita was not being pompous when he stated the above facts.

I believe "A fall" refers to monks who fell away from the holy life, but I don't have time to research the details. See Criticism and Replies.
If i may i do want to apologize because i do feel quite bad having stirred up this controversy and i feel remorse for doing so. It was not my intention to criticize but to merely express my own perplexity.
auto
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Re: Are teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw questionable?

Post by auto »

http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sa ... nsight.pdf
�⁵ “Noticing”(sallakkhaṇa) is a key term in this treatise. The corresponding verb in the Pāḷi language is sallakkheti (saṃ + lakh), which can be translated adequately as well as literally by “to mark clearly.” Though the use of “to mark” in the sense of “to observe” or “to notice” is quite legitimate in English, it is somewhat unusual and unwieldy in its derivations. Hence the rendering by “noticing” was chosen. “Noticing” is identical with “bare attention,” the term used in the translator’s book — “The Heart of Buddhist Meditation.”
'to mark clearly' convey way better the meaning. Noticing is way lax translation version of it. Peeps who just notice phenomena, there is one more thing inclusive to do, and that is crucial because its what makes the noticing demanding, taking a piece of meat from you.

With marking you understand that there will be a feedback you now have something to check on if you do your practice correctly.

4. Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away:

The Ten Corruptions of Insight�⁷ When the meditator, in the exercise of noticing, is able to keep exclusively to the present body-and-mind process, without looking back to past processes or ahead to future ones, then, as a result of insight, (the mental vision of) a brilliant light will appear to him. To one it will appear like the light of a lamp, to others like a flash of lightning, or like the radiance of the moon or the sun, and so on. With one it may last for just one moment, with others it may last longer.
It is perception of light, not lights or light orbs appear these orbs are corruption. Same thing with having imaginary mental bright light source it triggers the same channel.
Orbs or whatever aren't really corruption they just won't appear anymore later(next insight circles) but the vision goes bright will still occur.
V. Purification by Knowledge and Vision of What is Path and Not-path

While engaged in noticing, the meditator either by himself or through instructions from someone else, comes to this decision: “The brilliant light, and the other things experienced by me, are not the path. Delight in them is merely a corruption of insight. The practice of continuously noticing the object as it becomes evident — that alone is the way of insight. I must go on with just the work of noticing.” This decision is called purification by knowledge and vision of what is path and not-path.
now what is that object? do peeps think it is mere sensation in sense doors? It is the substance in sense field what can take any shape and form.

That object eventually disappears by marking it correctly, that's how you know you do things right. And it will reappear..
budo
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Re: Are teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw questionable?

Post by budo »

User1249x wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:16 am
budo wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:09 pm @[name redacted by admin],
my current position is that dry insight will take you up non-return, and after that supernormal knowledge and vision aided by the fourth jhanas are required. One can still attain jhanas before hand like Udaka and Alara did, but they will not get supernormal knowledge and vision.
You probably don't agree with this but I have no doubt that stream entry occurs more or less how Mahasi Sayadaw describes it and that the experience of cessation realizes the seeing with discernment, the timeless and sorrowless state in all of it's glory and that it is the full extent of knowledge and vision of the Dhamma.
I don't hold any position on the matter so I neither agree nor disagree.

Although I've been reading this all day which may answer some of your questions on re-attainment of fruit. Let me know what you think! https://freedfreedom.files.wordpress.co ... fredom.pdf
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Are teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw questionable?

Post by auto »

budo wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:16 pm
User1249x wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:16 am
budo wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:09 pm @[name redacted by admin],
my current position is that dry insight will take you up non-return, and after that supernormal knowledge and vision aided by the fourth jhanas are required. One can still attain jhanas before hand like Udaka and Alara did, but they will not get supernormal knowledge and vision.
You probably don't agree with this but I have no doubt that stream entry occurs more or less how Mahasi Sayadaw describes it and that the experience of cessation realizes the seeing with discernment, the timeless and sorrowless state in all of it's glory and that it is the full extent of knowledge and vision of the Dhamma.
I don't hold any position on the matter so I neither agree nor disagree.

Although I've been reading this all day which may answer some of your questions on re-attainment of fruit. Let me know what you think! https://freedfreedom.files.wordpress.co ... fredom.pdf
Read it, contains important information.
Getting results faster than year ago, used to get one in 4 month
Should mentally survey auxillary conditions for attaining peace
Nibanic bliss after every nana by determined time
No need to go over each of the Nana if attained the ability to aruse the Phala by mere adverting. Former prcedure is of value till one gains prficiecy in ataining.
Fruits by will- May i attain..
vaporlike curernt
Anagami magga does away with anger irritation
Can stabilize 1st arupa jhana by attending to the nimitta of open sky you have aquiered.

..
its packed with practical information.

--------
point is as it appears, phalas can be repeated by calling them out. Also it means then that fetters are not gotten rid indefinelty but anger or irritation are getting rid by appropriate phala. Idk jsut a guess from what i read what obviously suit my current view.
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Are teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw questionable?

Post by auto »

http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sa ... nsight.pdf
Also in the Commentary to the Kathāvatthu it is said: “Even if the impermanence of only a single formation (conditioned phenomenon) is known, there may be consideration of the rest by induction thus: ‘All formations are impermanent.’” The words “All formations are impermanent” refer to an understanding by induction, and not to an understanding by perceiving a (co-present) object at the same moment. (This passage is the authority for the usage of the term “inductive insight.”)
Understanding by induction by knowing impermanence of a single formation.

The insight into sequence to mental factors belong to Buddhas only..so that's why the groupings.
Also in the Commentary to the Majjhima Nikāya�⁵ it is said: “Because in the case of the realm of neither-perception-nor-nonperception, the insight into the sequence of mental factors belongs to the Buddhas alone and not to the disciples, he (the Buddha) said thus thereby indicating the insight by groups.” (This passage is the authority for the usage of the term “comprehension by groups.”)�⁶
the sutta is,
�⁵ In the Commentary to the Majjhima Nikāya No.111, the Anupada Sutta.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

so the descriptions in that Sutta are mental formations? edit, no its just the commentary to MN 111, so idk.
..
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
..
mbm
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:25 pm

Re: Are teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw questionable?

Post by mbm »

User1249x wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:44 pm
mbm wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:20 pmEverytime I thought there might be something imperfect with Mahasi's interpretations, I would find out later that Mahasi had a specific and perfect reason for it to appear that way.
I like his teachings in general but i do think some of it is questionable in as far as commentary is questionable. In some spots he follows commentary and i do agree with it, another spot i don't agree with it, other spots he finds commentary useful and i don't find it very useful, other spots he follows the commentary and i having neither realized that part of the teaching myself nor having an intellectual understanding of the details remain uncertain.

As you may have heard, the details are in your moment by moment experience and

words,
the Buddha,
concepts and
the intellect

merely points the way.

Just intellect leads you to the car but it doesn't drive you.

Intellect is overrated.

It is the materialist comfort zone.

Preconceptions about it can be the heart of one's wrong view.
Right view in the deepest sense
is no view. No opinion.

-In my honest opinion and experience.
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