Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dinsdale
Posts: 6541
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:07 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:31 pm
According to Classical Theravada, nibbana is not a place, nor a state of mind.
So what is Nibbana according to classical Theravada? I've heard it described as "a sphere that one touches".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
dylanj
Posts: 904
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:48 am
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by dylanj » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:28 am

Uccāvāca hi paṭipadā,

samaṇena pakāsitā,

na pāraṃ diguṇaṃ yanti,

na idaṃ ekaguṇaṃ mutaṃ.


"High and low are the paths,

Made known by the recluse,

They go not twice to the farther shore,

Nor yet is it to be reckoned a going once.
"
Sn 714, Nālakasutta.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

User avatar
dylanj
Posts: 904
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:48 am
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by dylanj » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:29 am

see nibbāna sermons 18 for commentary
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

Dinsdale
Posts: 6541
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:46 am

Robert123 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:18 pm
Udāna 8:1 states that in the dimension of nibbāna,
“there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”
To me passage like this are ambiguous and difficult to interpret, and I would be dubious about anyone who claims to know what they mean.

What they suggest to me are a deeper level of reality or experience, something which is then continuously present but not always the centre of attention. Perhaps a bit like moving to live on the side of a mountain, and gaining a wonderful view - the view would also be there, but we wouldn't be looking at it all the time.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
dylanj
Posts: 904
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:48 am
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by dylanj » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:21 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:46 am
Robert123 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:18 pm
Udāna 8:1 states that in the dimension of nibbāna,
“there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”
To me passage like this are ambiguous and difficult to interpret, and I would be dubious about anyone who claims to know what they mean.

What they suggest to me are a deeper level of reality or experience, something which is then continuously present but not always the centre of attention. Perhaps a bit like moving to live on the side of a mountain, and gaining a wonderful view - the view would also be there, but we wouldn't be looking at it all the time.
it is appanahita noncontinuous
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by seeker242 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:22 pm

Nibbana = no suffering. Once he became the Buddha, he became permanently without suffering. Impossible for him to go back into suffering.

Dinsdale
Posts: 6541
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:45 pm

dylanj wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:21 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:46 am
Robert123 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:18 pm
Udāna 8:1 states that in the dimension of nibbāna,
To me passage like this are ambiguous and difficult to interpret, and I would be dubious about anyone who claims to know what they mean.

What they suggest to me are a deeper level of reality or experience, something which is then continuously present but not always the centre of attention. Perhaps a bit like moving to live on the side of a mountain, and gaining a wonderful view - the view would also be there, but we wouldn't be looking at it all the time.
it is appanahita noncontinuous
Do you have a sutta reference for this? Also, what is the meaning of "appanahita"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2427
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:42 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:45 pm
dylanj wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:21 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:46 am


To me passage like this are ambiguous and difficult to interpret, and I would be dubious about anyone who claims to know what they mean.

What they suggest to me are a deeper level of reality or experience, something which is then continuously present but not always the centre of attention. Perhaps a bit like moving to live on the side of a mountain, and gaining a wonderful view - the view would also be there, but we wouldn't be looking at it all the time.
it is appanahita noncontinuous
Do you have a sutta reference for this? Also, what is the meaning of "appanahita"?
These are words from the Sutta

I will give this a try;

dhuvam - stable or constant
appavatta - non-continuing, non-persisting
akālika - timeless / beyond time /not-time

one can only talk about time or persistence of something in relation to something else.

Think about it like this,

What does it mean for something to persist or last for a year, that would be the persistence of that something in relation to the change of seasons, thus the X is measured by the change in Not-X, not-X in this case is the cycle of the seasonal shift.

Take for the concept of the smallest unit of measurable time; one would measure the smallest measurable change in something and make that the unit of measure. Ie the smallest measurable change in the position of a particle in space. Then one could calculate the persistance of something else in those intervals.

This is a characteristic of time in general.

Thus when we talk about X which is antithetical to Not-X it can be understood to have these properties;
dhuvam - stable or constant
appavatta - non-continuing, non-persisting
akālika - timeless / beyond time /not-time

Being a singleness it would not be persisting in relation to anything else and thus the concept of time would not apply and it is therefore a non-continuing constant.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 2584
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:56 pm

a word for describing Nirvana is… everlasting

should this be difficult? it's very clear

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2427
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:17 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:56 pm
a word for describing Nirvana is… everlasting

should this be difficult? it's very clear
Even if you say Nibbana is everlasting you have to reconcile it with Akaliko and the other words which will make it not everlasting in the conventional sense of the word, it can only be explained to be everlasting to the extent that it is not persisting and time does not apply to it but at that point it is much better to use the word constant or non-persisting.

What you are saying is akin to coming up with an answer to a riddle which is only a partial fit and is contradicted by the other part, which would make it clearly the wrong answer in that it does not fit the inference of the entirety of the posed statement. You are also clinging to your wrong view instead of trying to relinquish it and understand the Dhamma.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 2584
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:29 pm

I think if Buddha said everlasting, he means everlasting

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2427
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:35 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:29 pm
I think if Buddha said everlasting, he means everlasting
I think it is foolish to take out of the context what is probably a mistranslation of the pali word Dhuva and base one's whole interpretation of the Doctrine on that one word whilst ignoring proof by contradiction.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 2584
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:36 pm

It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Nibbæna, Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.

~ S 43.1-44
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2427
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:40 pm

Reasoning is harmful to fools,
It ruins their good fortune and splits open their heads

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 2584
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:41 pm

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Butters, form, Grigoris, SDC and 127 guests