Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

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rightviewftw
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:01 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:31 pm
dylanj wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:21 am
you have made a thing of nibbana, given it static & essential identity in the same way an eternalist gives that to themselves.
Though there are sutta passages which suggest that. "Unconditioned" means not subject to conditions, ie unchanging.
I think that i that's why he said "a thing", because "things" have conditions for their existence and are conditioned.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Volovsky
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Volovsky » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:35 am

Robert123 wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:45 pm
I think a case for both views could be made.

I like this quote from Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, but he may be worthless to you, I don't know.
Thanks for the reference. Although I'm very careful about Mahasi Sayadaw's books, I'm not convinced by them. Unless I see it in the Vism or commentaries, I don't take what he said for granted.

pegembara
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by pegembara » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:19 am

Mind can only take one object(conditioned/unconditioned) at a time. To engage with the "world" means having to "come out".
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

Robert123
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Robert123 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:32 am

[/quote]
Volovsky wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:35 am
Thanks for the reference. Although I'm very careful about Mahasi Sayadaw's books, I'm not convinced by them. Unless I see it in the Vism or commentaries, I don't take what he said for granted.
I hear you and I praise your carefulness with these things.

Dinsdale
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:06 am

pegembara wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:19 am
Mind can only take one object(conditioned/unconditioned) at a time. To engage with the "world" means having to "come out".
This assumes that Nibbana is a mind-object, and I don't think that is clear from the suttas.

But leaving this aside, are you suggesting that the mind continually switches between conditioned and unconditioned?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:09 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:01 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:31 pm
dylanj wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:21 am
you have made a thing of nibbana, given it static & essential identity in the same way an eternalist gives that to themselves.
Though there are sutta passages which suggest that. "Unconditioned" means not subject to conditions, ie unchanging.
I think that i that's why he said "a thing", because "things" have conditions for their existence and are conditioned.
It's tricky to find a suitable word though. "Thing" isn't really correct, but neither is "state", since states are conditioned.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

rightviewftw
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:24 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:09 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:01 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:31 pm


Though there are sutta passages which suggest that. "Unconditioned" means not subject to conditions, ie unchanging.
I think that i that's why he said "a thing", because "things" have conditions for their existence and are conditioned.
It's tricky to find a suitable word though. "Thing" isn't really correct, but neither is "state", since states are conditioned.
yeah i am glad you also see the problem therein
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

pegembara
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by pegembara » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:40 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:06 am
pegembara wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:19 am
Mind can only take one object(conditioned/unconditioned) at a time. To engage with the "world" means having to "come out".
This assumes that Nibbana is a mind-object, and I don't think that is clear from the suttas.

But leaving this aside, are you suggesting that the mind continually switches between conditioned and unconditioned?
The mind that has experienced nibbana is disinclined to engage in the conditioned realm. It doesn't mean it remains permanently in that state.
"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

Dinsdale
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:08 am

pegembara wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:40 am
The mind that has experienced nibbana is disinclined to engage in the conditioned realm. It doesn't mean it remains permanently in that state.
" This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This passage describes Nibbana as a permanent transformation of mind ( citta ). It doesn't support your view of Nibbana as a transient mind-object.

If you make Nibbana a sense-object, then you make it conditioned - but Nibbana is unconditioned.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

pegembara
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by pegembara » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:02 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:08 am
pegembara wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:40 am
The mind that has experienced nibbana is disinclined to engage in the conditioned realm. It doesn't mean it remains permanently in that state.
" This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This passage describes Nibbana as a permanent transformation of mind ( citta ). It doesn't support your view of Nibbana as a transient mind-object.

If you make Nibbana a sense-object, then you make it conditioned - but Nibbana is unconditioned.
This passage does not describe Nibbana as a permanent transformation of mind ( citta ). Otherwise, the passage would state "hard to realise". Nibbana is described as being present with or without a Buddha and has nothing to do with mind transformation.

If nibbana cannot be known, then there is no escape from the conditioned. So it is an object("There is that") but not as you put it a transient sense object(ayatana). It is ungraspable.

There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Interesting that there is no mention of dimension of cessation of feeling & perception. Is there an equivalence to nibbana?


"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

rightviewftw
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:48 am

pegembara wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:02 am
Interesting that there is no mention of dimension of cessation of feeling & perception. Is there an equivalence to nibbana?
I am sure that the answer is yes and that is why it is only accessible to Ariya and not putthujanna. As i understand it, it takes a considerable amount of concentration to be able to attain such absorption at will so not all Ariya can do but all Ariya who have attained the seeing with discernment have realized cessation of all aggregates including feeling & perception at least once and are able to discern that unmade state.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:21 am

pegembara wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:19 am
Mind can only take one object(conditioned/unconditioned) at a time. To engage with the "world" means having to "come out".
I don't disagree with your statement but if i may weigh in with a comment as to how i understand it;

Technically to engage with the world does indeed mean having to "come out" and it is rightfully put in parentheses because it is not a coming out of but it is arising of the conditioned that is the "coming out" of absorbtion dependent on neither earth, fire, water, wind, nor the immaterial dimensions, the coming out of such absorption is the arising of the mind of a being.

As to the Ultimate Reality of the Unmade state, there is no coming into, staying therein nor going therefrom.
And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying;
Mind of a being is that which, is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’, that, arises and ceases, that mind can discern, know, imagine and even recollect the peace of cessation but being itself conditioned it is ultimately antithetical to the Ultimate Unmade Reality so the two do not come into direct contact with eachother because Ultimate Unmade Reality is not experienced thru the allness of the all.

Therefore there is a differentiation between The Unmade as a concept/ideation of the intellect and The Unmade as a ultimate reality, with the attainment of Parinibbana the conception of Nibbana no longer arises either because there is no more ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’ to recollect, imagine or think about it.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Pondera
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Pondera » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:31 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:48 am
pegembara wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:02 am
Interesting that there is no mention of dimension of cessation of feeling & perception. Is there an equivalence to nibbana?
I am sure that the answer is yes and that is why it is only accessible to Ariya and not putthujanna. As i understand it, it takes a considerable amount of concentration to be able to attain such absorption at will so not all Ariya can do but all Ariya who have attained the seeing with discernment have realized cessation of all aggregates including feeling & perception at least once and are able to discern that unmade state.
If anything, it requires a forest and seclusion. Everyday stress seems to disappear in the forest. Consciousness is easily let go of in the forest.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

pegembara
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by pegembara » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:18 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:21 am
pegembara wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:19 am
Mind can only take one object(conditioned/unconditioned) at a time. To engage with the "world" means having to "come out".
I don't disagree with your statement but if i may weigh in with a comment as to how i understand it;

Technically to engage with the world does indeed mean having to "come out" and it is rightfully put in parentheses because it is not a coming out of but it is arising of the conditioned that is the "coming out" of absorbtion dependent on neither earth, fire, water, wind, nor the immaterial dimensions, the coming out of such absorption is the arising of the mind of a being.

As to the Ultimate Reality of the Unmade state, there is no coming into, staying therein nor going therefrom.
And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying;
Mind of a being is that which, is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’, that, arises and ceases, that mind can discern, know, imagine and even recollect the peace of cessation but being itself conditioned it is ultimately antithetical to the Ultimate Unmade Reality so the two do not come into direct contact with eachother because Ultimate Unmade Reality is not experienced thru the allness of the all.

Therefore there is a differentiation between The Unmade as a concept/ideation of the intellect and The Unmade as a ultimate reality, with the attainment of Parinibbana the conception of Nibbana no longer arises either because there is no more ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’ to recollect, imagine or think about it.
I like the use of parentheses to describe ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’ which are all sankharas for ultimately there is no mind/consciousness/Self.
"How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: 'In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death — this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!' Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach.
Some, unfortunately, tend to cling to the idea of a 'something' that persists eternally.
"And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being, their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.
I see the final nibbana or 'death' simply as the final cessation of all that is experienced.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
So perhaps to reframe - What happens after parinibbana? Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in PariNibbana?
Last edited by pegembara on Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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dylanj
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by dylanj » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:32 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:31 pm
dylanj wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:21 am
you have made a thing of nibbana, given it static & essential identity in the same way an eternalist gives that to themselves.
Though there are sutta passages which suggest that. "Unconditioned" means not subject to conditions, ie unchanging.
yes that's right. that's not the same as eternal. eternal is tied up with time which is change. if there is no change there's stasis, not continuation,
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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