These are good questions and I will try providing you with comprehensive answers without overly complicating it.
1)
Robert123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:27 am
We may disagree a little bit on the two types of nirodha but I don't think it is important for my question.
Let me know what is the disagreement after you read these replies;
2)
Robert123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:27 am
So, nibbana can be defined in 2 quite different ways: "fruition attainment" (phalasamapatti) and ending delusion.
On the definition of Nibbana in general;
a) Nibbana Element;
“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”
“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.
The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.” https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodhi
- The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.
b) The Deathless;
When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”
“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
Here two points are of interest;
- The difference and correlation between Destruction and Removal of X, Y & Z
- The Path to destruction of X, Y & Z stated to be the 8FNP
c) the definition from the Nibbana Sutta;
There is that dimension, monks,
where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception;
neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising:
unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2]
This, just this, is the end of stress.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Of particular importance are two points;
- This, just this, is the end of stress.
- abscence of earth, water, fire,wind and other dimensions
Which correlates to the definition of Vinnana Anidassana which is stated to be "Consciousness Signless" or "Consciousness without a feature";
"'If, good sir, you have directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, may it not turn out to be actually vain and void for you.'
"'Consciousness without surface,
endless, radiant all around,
has
not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
‘Where consciousness is signless,
boundless, all-luminous,
That’s where earth, water, fire and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
There “name-and-form” are wholly destroyed.
http://www.leighb.com/dn11_85.htm
Name&Form being destroyed is also a very important semantical attribute because it binds the concepts together and shows the relation;
"The thought occurred to me, 'I have attained this path to Awakening, i.e.,
from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease.
Thus is the cessation of this entire mass of stress. Cessation, cessation.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The cessation of contact being implied by cessation of feeling is also to be kept in mind going forward talking about cessation of perception & feeling in the context of attainment of sannavedananirodha which is noteworthy not listed among the dimensions which are not nibbana in the Ud 8.1.
Now let's revisit 2a&b;
The Path to Destruction of delusion is the 8FNP and the 8FNP is also stated to lead to these;
- the way leading to the cessation of suffering? It is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of nutriment is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of aging and death is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of being is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of clinging is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of craving is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of feeling is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of contact is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of Name&Form is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of consciousness is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of formations is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path
- The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
First of all let's note that Cessation of Contact can be explained to realize the Deathless.
Furthermore let's examine Sannavedananirodha; cessation of perception & feeling.
from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling.
this is the dependent origination model of the cessation of feeling and also perception because perception will cease along with feeling;
From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception.
Therefore this is a Noble Attainment which can be explained to realize Nibbana in as far as it realizes cessation of contact.
Now in regards to the differences between the terms like Phalasamapatti, Nirodhasamapatti, Nibbana and Parinibbana.
One could say a lot about the differences but i will keep it short and say that the difference and the need to various terms is the context and significance of the Cessation therein.
IE; The first realization of Cessation has a particular designation because it is the first attainment and makes one a Stream-Enterer and emerging from this attainment one gains the knowledge of the Cessation. Consecutive attainments don't make one a stream-enterer and do not result in gaining that knowledge a new and the event is different to that extent. Furthermore there are 4 types of Noble individuals when taken as pairs and therefore there come to be Four Path attainments and Four Fruition attainments thus the difference between the cessation is in what context it occurs and the state of one who emerges from it, IE after the initial attaiment of the first Path the disciples emerges a Sotapanna, after the attainment of second path the disciple emerges a Sakidagamin and so on. The final cessation and Parinibbana is perhaps the best way to illustrate the difference and significance of context because with such cessation there is no emerging at all because the person who attained it is dead and is no more.
This is the extent of the Attainments pertaining to Cessation of Contact.
Is there still another way to talk about Nibbana without the context of Cessation of Contact? Yes, there is.
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2]
Therein Contact simply does not occur and there is therefore no Cessation of contact to speak of. There designation; "Neither this world nor the next" is also most noteworthy because given that there is no world implies that there are no beings to populate it or cognize it.
It is beyond the end of the world.
“Reverends, the Buddha gave this brief passage for recitation, then entered his dwelling without explaining the meaning in detail: ‘Mendicants, I say it’s not possible to know or see or reach the end of the world by traveling. But I also say there’s no making an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world.’ This is how I understand the detailed meaning of this passage for recitation. Whatever in the world through which you perceive the world and conceive the world is called the world in the training of the noble one. And through what in the world do you perceive the world and conceive the world? Through the eye in the world you perceive the world and conceive the world. Through the ear … nose … tongue … body … mind in the world you perceive the world and conceive the world. Whatever in the world through which you perceive the world and conceive the world is called the world in the training of the noble one. When the Buddha gave this brief passage for recitation, then entered his dwelling without explaining the meaning in detail: ‘Mendicants, I say it’s not possible to know or see or reach the end of the world by traveling. But I also say there’s no making an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world.’ That is how I understand the detailed meaning of this summary. If you wish, you may go to the Buddha and ask him about this. You should remember it in line with the Buddha’s answer.”
“Yes, reverend,” replied those mendicants. Then they rose from their seats and went to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and told him what had happened. Then they said:
“And Ānanda explained the meaning to us in this manner, with these words and phrases.”
“Mendicants, Ānanda is astute, he has great wisdom. If you came to me and asked this question, I would answer it in exactly the same way as Ānanda. That is what it means, and that’s how you should remember it.”