Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by DooDoot »

Pondera wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:15 am Cunda Sutta. No mention of hate, greed, or delusion
"Thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being Dhamma-devotee monks, we will speak in praise of jhana monks.' That's how you should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.[2]
The deathless element is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. :strawman:

Anyway, work is over for the day; i have a tree to plant. :thumbsup: :thanks: :pig:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pondera
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

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Not according to most suttas.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
[/quote]

This is one sutta. Kim Attha sutta is another.
"Thus in this way, Ananda, skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.
Completely different approach to liberation. No mention of the effluents.
Last edited by Pondera on Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Pondera
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Pondera »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:18 am
Pondera wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:15 am Cunda Sutta. No mention of hate, greed, or delusion
"Thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being Dhamma-devotee monks, we will speak in praise of jhana monks.' That's how you should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.[2]
The deathless element is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. :strawman:

Anyway, work is over for the day; i have a tree to plant. :thumbsup: :thanks: :pig:
Where!!! Why!!! How!!! Show me!!! What tree!!! Prove it with a sutta!!! :computerproblem:
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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DooDoot
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by DooDoot »

Pondera wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:21 am
Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.
Completely different approach to liberation. No mention of the effluents.
Disenchantment & dispassion are the destruction of craving and ending of the effluents.

:focus:
Pondera wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:23 amWhere!!! Why!!! How!!! Show me!!! What tree!!! Prove it with a sutta!!!
Below. Please radiate metta to the new tree. :candle: :heart: :candle:
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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Pondera »

Fine. I send loving kindness in all four directions, above and below that it may reach this little tree.

Now. How in the world can it be so bright over there? Are you an Australian? It’s pitch dark here! Weird ...
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by DooDoot »

Pondera wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:38 amFine. I send loving kindness in all four directions, above and below that it may reach this little tree.
:twothumbsup: :anjali:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Robert123
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Robert123 »

Hi [name redacted by admin],

I think I found the answer to this post: "Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out?"

The answer is yes, he did.

Here is what Mahasi Sayadaw says:
In terms of being the cessation of all mental and physical suffering that has the characteristic of peacefulness, there is only one kind of nibbana. However, in another sense, nibbana may be further divided into two types as follows: with residue remaining (sa-upadisesa)—this is the nibbana of an arahant, one who has completely extinguished all mental defilements but still experiences the “residue” of the aggregates as a result of past craving, clinging, and volitional actions; and without residue remaining (anupadisesa)—this is the nibbana of an arahant who has passed away, that is, after entering parinibbana, and refers to the complete cessation of all conditioned phenomena. https://www.lionsroar.com/the-promise-of-nibbana/amp/
My interpretation is that when he says "In terms of being the cessation of all mental and physical suffering" he is talking about fruition attainment (phala), which can only last 7 days.

When he is talking about arahant with residue, he is talking about the arahant who steps out of fruition attainment.

Yes?
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by User1249x »

Robert123 wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:29 pm Hi [name redacted by admin],

I think I found the answer to this post: "Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out?"

The answer is yes, he did.

Here is what Mahasi Sayadaw says:
In terms of being the cessation of all mental and physical suffering that has the characteristic of peacefulness, there is only one kind of nibbana. However, in another sense, nibbana may be further divided into two types as follows: with residue remaining (sa-upadisesa)—this is the nibbana of an arahant, one who has completely extinguished all mental defilements but still experiences the “residue” of the aggregates as a result of past craving, clinging, and volitional actions; and without residue remaining (anupadisesa)—this is the nibbana of an arahant who has passed away, that is, after entering parinibbana, and refers to the complete cessation of all conditioned phenomena. https://www.lionsroar.com/the-promise-of-nibbana/amp/
My interpretation is that when he says "In terms of being the cessation of all mental and physical suffering" he is talking about fruition attainment (phala), which can only last 7 days.

When he is talking about arahant with residue, he is talking about the arahant who steps out of fruition attainment.

Yes?
yes i think we are on the same page, that is how i understand it as well. They are remain free from delusion.
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and plain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
dhp 241-243
No recitation: the ruinous impurity
of chants.
No initiative: of a household.
Indolence: of beauty.
Heedlessness: of a guard.

In a woman, misconduct is an impurity.
In a donor, stinginess.
Evil deeds are the real impurities
in this world & the next.
More impure than these impurities
is the ultimate impurity:
ignorance.
Having abandoned this impurity,
monks, you're impurity-free.
Afaik when MS talks about;
In terms of being the cessation of all mental and physical suffering that has the characteristic of peacefulness, there is only one kind of
nibbana.
he is referring to a direct realization of;
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.’”
by means of cessation of namarupa/aggregates
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Robert123 »

Great! I am glad we are on the same page.

If so, could you explain what is the difference between the experience of phala and the experience of an arahant not in phala?

1) in phala the person has nibbana as an object, whereas out of phala his object can be something else--e. g. people. right?
2) ?
3) ?

What else?

In phala formations cease, but do formation cease for an arahant who is not in phala?
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by cappuccino »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:18 amThe deathless element is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion.

the deathless is an element, like water
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by budo »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:48 pm
DooDoot wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:18 amThe deathless element is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion.

the deathless is an element, like water
Is it not part of the 5 aggregates then?
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by User1249x »

Robert123 wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:33 pm Great! I am glad we are on the same page.

If so, could you explain what is the difference between the experience of phala and the experience of an arahant not in phala?

1) in phala the person has nibbana as an object, whereas out of phala his object can be something else--e. g. people. right?
2) ?
3) ?

What else?

In phala formations cease, but do formation cease for an arahant who is not in phala?
Well what do you think is the arahant a construct/formation? And if he is then how is it proper to ask if he experiences or doesnt experience formations? If there is the constructed there is no unconstructed, if there is unconstructed there is no constructed therein.

That by which one perceices and conceives the world that is called the world in this doctrine. Going to the end to the world realizes cessation of formations/the world.
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Robert123 »

I thought the body could be thought as formation, which perhaps is not experienced when in phala state. I don't know. But ok let's say in both states one does not experience formation.

What about the other questions? What is the difference between the two states: an arahant in phala and an arahant in non phala?
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by User1249x »

Robert123 wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:22 pm I thought the body could be thought as formation, which perhaps is not experienced when in phala state. I don't know. But ok let's say in both states one does not experience formation.

What about the other questions? What is the difference between the two states: an arahant in phala and an arahant in non phala?
Consider this;
if a person attains cessation of the conditioned, as far as he is concerned the world has vanished with you and him in it.

You however might still perceive the body, but that is seeing arising for you, has nothing to do with him in as far as you would be unable to postulate his existence as truth or an ultimate reality beyond the extent of seeing. If you touch him it is sensory impression arising for you. Therefore you and the person only exists in as far as you can conceive and perceive it. Therefore that by which you conceive and perceive the world is called the world in this dispensation.

The person who has attained cessation does not exist outside of your conception and perception until he emerges from that attainment, having emerged from that attainment the world is conceived and perceived by him in as far as sensory impressions arise.

If you yourself was to attain cessation, as far as you are concerned the world would disappear along with any perception, feeling or consciousness by which you might have perceived or cognized your own existence or the existence of another prior to cessation, like waking up from a dream except herein the awakening is to the unconditioned and timeless.

Here are some sutta and excerpts which point to this;
"What do you think, Anuradha: Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Is feeling constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is perception constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Are fabrications constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is consciousness constant or inconstant?

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Ayojjhans on the banks of the Ganges River. There he addressed the monks: "Monks, suppose that a large glob of foam were floating down this Ganges River, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a glob of foam? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any form that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in form?

"Now suppose that in the autumn — when it's raining in fat, heavy drops — a water bubble were to appear & disappear on the water, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a water bubble? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any feeling that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in feeling?

"Now suppose that in the last month of the hot season a mirage were shimmering, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a mirage? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any perception that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in perception?

"Now suppose that a man desiring heartwood, in quest of heartwood, seeking heartwood, were to go into a forest carrying a sharp ax. There he would see a large banana tree: straight, young, of enormous height. He would cut it at the root and, having cut it at the root, would chop off the top. Having chopped off the top, he would peel away the outer skin. Peeling away the outer skin, he wouldn't even find sapwood, to say nothing of heartwood. Then a man with good eyesight would see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a banana tree? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any fabrications that are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing them, observing them, & appropriately examining them — they would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in fabrications?

"Now suppose that a magician or magician's apprentice were to display a magic trick at a major intersection, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a magic trick? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any consciousness that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in consciousness?

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. Through dispassion, he's released. With release there's the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-Gone, the Teacher, said further:


Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately.

Beginning with the body
as taught by the One
with profound discernment:
when abandoned by three things
— life, warmth, & consciousness —
form is rejected, cast aside.
When bereft of these
it lies thrown away,
senseless,
a meal for others.
That's the way it goes:
it's a magic trick,
an idiot's babbling.
It's said to be
a murderer.[1]
No substance here
is found.

Thus a monk, persistence aroused,
should view the aggregates
by day & by night,
mindful,
alert;
should discard all fetters;
should make himself
his own refuge;
should live as if
his head were on fire —
in hopes of the state
with no falling away.
Verse 170 dhp
Just as a bubble may be seen,
just as a faint mirage,
so should the world be viewed
that the Death-king sees one not.
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