Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

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Robert123
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Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Robert123 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:18 pm

Hello all,

I was trying to find a sutta that would demonstrate that after his enlightenment the Buddha permanently dwelled in nibbana but I cannot find it.
Do you know if the Buddha permanently dwelled in nibbana or was in an out of it?

Searching this subject I came about this sutta which states that the immaterial jhanas which the Buddha experienced after his enlightenment are not nibbana:

Udāna 8:1 states that in the dimension of nibbāna,
“there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”


However, the Buddha was able to dwell in the jhanas after his enlightenment:

Dīgha Nikāya 28 states,
“The Blessed Lord is able, here and now, to enjoy the surpassing happiness of dwelling in the four jhānas.” After his enlightenment, and therefore while living his life abiding in nibbāna, the Buddha (Blessed Lord) was able to enter and dwell in the jhānas when he so desired.


Additionally, Dīgha Nikāya 16 explains that, before his death, the Buddha entered the jhānas and went up and down through all of them:
Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, “Now, then, monks, I exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful.” Those were the Tathāgata’s last words. Then the Blessed One entered the first jhāna. Emerging from that he entered the second jhāna. Emerging from that, he entered the third … the fourth jhāna … the dimension of the infinitude of space … the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness … the dimension of nothingness … the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the cessation of perception & feeling. Then Ven. Ānanda said to Ven. Anuruddha, “Ven. Anuruddha, the Blessed One is totally unbound.” “No, friend Ānanda. The Blessed One isn't totally unbound. He has entered the cessation of perception & feeling.” Then the Blessed One, emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the dimension of nothingness … the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness … the dimension of the infinitude of space … the fourth jhāna … the third … the second … the first jhāna. Emerging from the first jhāna he entered the second … the third … the fourth jhāna. Emerging from the fourth jhāna, he immediately was totally Unbound. When the Blessed One was totally Unbound, simultaneously with the total Unbinding, there was a great earthquake, awesome & hair-raising, and the drums of the devas sounded.

So it seems that the Buddha did not permanently dwell in nibbana. Is this correct?
Or, can you tell me which sutta states the opposite, please?

If you don't know any sutta that state that, could you refer me to a reliable book?

Thanks!

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by DNS » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:31 pm

According to Classical Theravada, nibbana is not a place, nor a state of mind.

See also the great nibbana thread:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=22409

And nibbana poll:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=25166

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:41 pm

There is a way to explain that the Buddha did not constantly dwell in Cessation attainment because it is impossible to dwell in it for more than seven days and seven nights;
"'Now, I — without moving my body, without uttering a word — can dwell sensitive to unalloyed pleasure for a day and a night... for two days & nights... for three... four... five... six... seven days & nights. So what do you think: That being the case, who dwells in greater pleasure: King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha or me?'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The above would be referred to as cessation of perception and feeling, sannavedananirodha or fruition attainment phalasamapatti.
One can also say that he always experienced absence of delusion and that was the Nibbana element in the here & now;
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and plain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:08 pm

There is no coming and going in or out in Nibbana.
However. living Arahants enter and remain in Nirodha Samapatti for a maximum of seven days.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by cappuccino » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:29 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:31 pm
According to Classical Theravada, nibbana is not a place, nor a state of mind.
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support. This, just this, is the end of stress.
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by DNS » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:46 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:29 am
DNS wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:31 pm
According to Classical Theravada, nibbana is not a place, nor a state of mind.
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support. This, just this, is the end of stress.
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding
Correct, there are varying views of interpretation. You underlined dimension and "where." Another view with a different emphasis:

There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support. This, just this, is the end of stress.
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by SarathW » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:53 am

Can I say that there is that dimension without a dimension?
:rolleye:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Robert123
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Robert123 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:32 am

In my understanding there are 2 types of cessation: 1) Nirodha Samapatti and 2) phalasamapatti. The cessation that occurs after the "8th jhana" (neither perception nor non perception) is called Nirodha Samapatti (or saññāvedayitanirodha), and the cessation realized in nibbana is called fruition attainment (phalasamapatti), which does not necessitate the cessation of Nirodha Samapatti. Based on this, I don't think that dwelling in Nirodha Samapatti has anything to do with dwelling in nibbana.

Thank you for this quote.
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and plain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.


I like this quote. I think if we define Nibbana in a loser way it would answer my question. But let me try to be more specific.

Nibbana is experienced when a person abides in what is called "fruition attainment" (phalasamapatti), correct?
If we agree with this definition of Nibbana, then was the Buddha abiding perpetually in "fruition attainment"? I don't think so because "furition attainment" is always temporary, correct? So the Buddha had eradicated passion aggression and delusion yet he was not always abiding in nibbana (if we define nibbana as fruition attainment. Correct?

Thanks!

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:30 am

Robert123 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:32 am
In my understanding there are 2 types of cessation: 1) Nirodha Samapatti and 2) phalasamapatti. The cessation that occurs after the "8th jhana" (neither perception nor non perception) is called Nirodha Samapatti (or saññāvedayitanirodha), and the cessation realized in nibbana is called fruition attainment (phalasamapatti), which does not necessitate the cessation of Nirodha Samapatti. Based on this, I don't think that dwelling in Nirodha Samapatti has anything to do with dwelling in nibbana.
Nirodha samapatti is cessation of perception & feeling, it realizes cessation of contact and so does path attainment and therefore both are noble attainments which realize cessation of aggregates. The only path to cessation of feeling and perception is 8FNP so they are definitely related. The term phalasamapatti is afaik only used by Sariputta in KN as far as the Sutta Pitaka goes so i couldn't really tell the difference between Signless concentration, nirodha samapatti and phalasamapatti but i think they all these attainments realize the cessation of contact and one comes to know that base which is referred to in Ud 8.1 Nibbana Sutta by attaining cessation of contact.
Robert123 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:32 am
Nibbana is experienced when a person abides in what is called "fruition attainment" (phalasamapatti), correct?
If we agree with this definition of Nibbana, then was the Buddha abiding perpetually in "fruition attainment"? I don't think so because "furition attainment" is always temporary, correct? So the Buddha had eradicated passion aggression and delusion yet he was not always abiding in nibbana (if we define nibbana as fruition attainment. Correct?

Thanks!
1. Correct
2. He was not always abiding in fruition attainment if we defined fruition attainment as a meditative attainment of cessation.

Nibbana is also defined as destruction of delusion, in that sense only can we say that the Arahants always abide in Nibbana having destroyed delusion they remain without delusion.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Robert123 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:27 am

We may disagree a little bit on the two types of nirodha but I don't think it is important for my question.

I like your clarity, thank you for answering all of my questions.

One more question comes up after reading your answer.

So, nibbana can be defined in 2 quite different ways: "fruition attainment" (phalasamapatti) and ending delusion.
A person can only be in "fruition attainment" for a limited time, but can attain the "ending of delusion" forever when s/he becomes an Arahat.
I find this a bit confusing. There seem to be two different states of nibbana, otherwise a person who ends delusion would permanently abide in phalasamapatti. But that's not the case. Strange.

Ok, if you agree with this then my question is: what do you think is the experiential difference between "fruition attainment" (phalasamapatti) and "ending delusion."


I guess here we'd have to clarify the difference between phalasamapatti and Nirodha Samapatti, unless you are ok in not using these two passages to answer my question because these passages don't refer to phalasamapatti but refer to Nirodha Samapatti:
“A bhīkkhu, completely passing beyond the base of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and dwells in the cessation of perception and feeling.”
If in the eighth jhāna perception and feeling were still present here they do not occur. Although there is a complete cessation of awareness, the meditator does not die. The Buddha explains:
Friends, what is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a bhīkkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeing? Friends, in the case of one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily formations have ceased and subsided, his verbal formations have ceased and subsided, his mental formations have ceased and subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat has been dissipated, and his faculties are fully broken up. In the case of a bhīkkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling, his bodily formations have ceased and subsided, his verbal formations have ceased and subsided, his mental formations have ceased and subsided, but his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not been dissipated, and his faculties become exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a bhīkkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception of feeling.

If you agree we don't need to go into lengthy clarifications about the difference between the two types of nirodha and we can exclude this above mentioned type because a person here is unconscious, which is not nibbana because in nibbana a person is conscious. But if you don't agree, ok, we'll talk about it.

Thanks for engaging in this discussion!

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by 2600htz » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:17 pm

Hello:

The word Nibbana literally means "blowing out".
I think the right use of the word should be for the time period between something being there and that very same thing being gone (in this context going from a mind with craving to a mind with no more craving -the Buddha experiencing the fruition of arahantship)

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Regards.

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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:44 pm

These are good questions and I will try providing you with comprehensive answers without overly complicating it.
1)
Robert123 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:27 am
We may disagree a little bit on the two types of nirodha but I don't think it is important for my question.
Let me know what is the disagreement after you read these replies;
2)
Robert123 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:27 am
So, nibbana can be defined in 2 quite different ways: "fruition attainment" (phalasamapatti) and ending delusion.
On the definition of Nibbana in general;

a) Nibbana Element;
“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.” https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodhi
  • The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.
b) The Deathless;
When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
Here two points are of interest;
  • The difference and correlation between Destruction and Removal of X, Y & Z
  • The Path to destruction of X, Y & Z stated to be the 8FNP
c) the definition from the Nibbana Sutta;
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Of particular importance are two points;
  • This, just this, is the end of stress.
  • abscence of earth, water, fire,wind and other dimensions
Which correlates to the definition of Vinnana Anidassana which is stated to be "Consciousness Signless" or "Consciousness without a feature";
"'If, good sir, you have directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, may it not turn out to be actually vain and void for you.'

"'Consciousness without surface,
endless, radiant all around,
has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.'https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
‘Where consciousness is signless,
boundless, all-luminous,
That’s where earth, water, fire and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
There “name-and-form” are wholly destroyed.
http://www.leighb.com/dn11_85.htm
Name&Form being destroyed is also a very important semantical attribute because it binds the concepts together and shows the relation;
"The thought occurred to me, 'I have attained this path to Awakening, i.e., from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass of stress. Cessation, cessation.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before.https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The cessation of contact being implied by cessation of feeling is also to be kept in mind going forward talking about cessation of perception & feeling in the context of attainment of sannavedananirodha which is noteworthy not listed among the dimensions which are not nibbana in the Ud 8.1.

Now let's revisit 2a&b;
The Path to Destruction of delusion is the 8FNP and the 8FNP is also stated to lead to these;
  • the way leading to the cessation of suffering? It is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of nutriment is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of aging and death is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of being is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of clinging is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of craving is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of feeling is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of contact is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of Name&Form is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of consciousness is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of formations is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path
  • The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception... https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
First of all let's note that Cessation of Contact can be explained to realize the Deathless.

Furthermore let's examine Sannavedananirodha; cessation of perception & feeling.
from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling.
this is the dependent origination model of the cessation of feeling and also perception because perception will cease along with feeling;
From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception.
Therefore this is a Noble Attainment which can be explained to realize Nibbana in as far as it realizes cessation of contact.

Now in regards to the differences between the terms like Phalasamapatti, Nirodhasamapatti, Nibbana and Parinibbana.
One could say a lot about the differences but i will keep it short and say that the difference and the need to various terms is the context and significance of the Cessation therein.

IE; The first realization of Cessation has a particular designation because it is the first attainment and makes one a Stream-Enterer and emerging from this attainment one gains the knowledge of the Cessation. Consecutive attainments don't make one a stream-enterer and do not result in gaining that knowledge a new and the event is different to that extent. Furthermore there are 4 types of Noble individuals when taken as pairs and therefore there come to be Four Path attainments and Four Fruition attainments thus the difference between the cessation is in what context it occurs and the state of one who emerges from it, IE after the initial attaiment of the first Path the disciples emerges a Sotapanna, after the attainment of second path the disciple emerges a Sakidagamin and so on. The final cessation and Parinibbana is perhaps the best way to illustrate the difference and significance of context because with such cessation there is no emerging at all because the person who attained it is dead and is no more.

This is the extent of the Attainments pertaining to Cessation of Contact.

Is there still another way to talk about Nibbana without the context of Cessation of Contact? Yes, there is.
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2]
Therein Contact simply does not occur and there is therefore no Cessation of contact to speak of. There designation; "Neither this world nor the next" is also most noteworthy because given that there is no world implies that there are no beings to populate it or cognize it.
It is beyond the end of the world.
“Reverends, the Buddha gave this brief passage for recitation, then entered his dwelling without explaining the meaning in detail: ‘Mendicants, I say it’s not possible to know or see or reach the end of the world by traveling. But I also say there’s no making an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world.’ This is how I understand the detailed meaning of this passage for recitation. Whatever in the world through which you perceive the world and conceive the world is called the world in the training of the noble one. And through what in the world do you perceive the world and conceive the world? Through the eye in the world you perceive the world and conceive the world. Through the ear … nose … tongue … body … mind in the world you perceive the world and conceive the world. Whatever in the world through which you perceive the world and conceive the world is called the world in the training of the noble one. When the Buddha gave this brief passage for recitation, then entered his dwelling without explaining the meaning in detail: ‘Mendicants, I say it’s not possible to know or see or reach the end of the world by traveling. But I also say there’s no making an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world.’ That is how I understand the detailed meaning of this summary. If you wish, you may go to the Buddha and ask him about this. You should remember it in line with the Buddha’s answer.”

“Yes, reverend,” replied those mendicants. Then they rose from their seats and went to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and told him what had happened. Then they said:

“And Ānanda explained the meaning to us in this manner, with these words and phrases.”

“Mendicants, Ānanda is astute, he has great wisdom. If you came to me and asked this question, I would answer it in exactly the same way as Ānanda. That is what it means, and that’s how you should remember it.”
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:47 pm

Finally it can be added that Delusion is destroyed by attaining the cessation of contact and coming to know the unmade and that is why as i understand it Nibbana is referred to as destruction of delusion.
"Now, as long as I did not have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening in this cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans & contemplatives, its royalty & common people. But when I did have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening in this cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans & contemplatives, its royalty & common people.

"The fourfold round in what way? I had direct knowledge of form... of the origination of form... of the cessation of form... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of form.

"I had direct knowledge of feeling...

"I had direct knowledge of perception...

"I had direct knowledge of fabrications...

"I had direct knowledge of consciousness... of the origination of consciousness... of the cessation of consciousness... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness.
"Monks, I declare that the destruction of the cankers[2] comes for him who knows and sees, and not for him who does not know and does not see. By knowing what, by seeing what, does the destruction of the cankers come about? 'Such is material form, such is its arising, such is its passing away; such is feeling... such is perception... such are the mental formations... such is consciousness, such is its arising, such is its passing away': for him who knows this, for him who sees this, the destruction of the cankers comes about.
2.
AAsavaa From aa-savati "flows towards" (i.e., either "into" or "out" towards the observer), thus lit. either "influx" or "secretion." The most generally accepted translation today is "cankers." [Another meaning is "fermentation," hence "intoxicants" is a possible alternative rendering.] The four cankers are those of (1) sense-desire (kaamaasava) (2) desire for continued existence (bhavaasava) (3) wrong views (di.t.thiaasava: cf. SN 12.15, n. 1): and (4) ignorance (avijjaasava) though (3) is often omitted, being doubtless included in (4). The destruction of the cankers is equivalent to Arahantship, and an Arahant is sometimes called khiinaasava.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
Basicly until beings attain such Cessation of contact acoming to know the Unmade there is no making end to the Greed, Anger and Delusion but once a being comes to know the cessation he either removes delusion entirely after the initial attainment or eventually depending on prior development.

Anyway that is how i understand these things so fwiw.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

Robert123
Posts: 40
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Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by Robert123 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:31 am

I agree with everything you say up to this point:
The cessation of contact being implied by cessation of feeling is also to be kept in mind going forward talking about cessation of perception & feeling in the context of attainment of sannavedananirodha which is noteworthy not listed among the dimensions which are not nibbana in the Ud 8.1.
Now let me explain why I believe the 2 nirodhas are completely different.

The way I reason that sannavedananirodha is not nibbana is because of 2 reasons: 1) sannavedananirodha is only realized by the non-returner and the arahnt(I can provide references), 2) Ananda makes a clear distinction between sannavedananirodha and nibbana.

In terms of what Ananda says notice next that sannavedananirodha has nothing to do with nibbana:
[Udayin:] “Released both ways, released both ways,” it is said. “To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released both ways?” [Ānanda:] [1] “There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released both ways, though with a sequel. Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhāna … the third jhāna … the fourth jhāna … the dimension of the infinitude of space … the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness … the dimension of nothingness … the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released both ways, though with a sequel. Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. [2] And as he sees with discernment, [3] the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released both ways without a sequel [italics added brackets in original].’”
What I indicated in the above quote as [1] is jhana, [2] is insight, and [3] is nibbana.
Notice that sannavedananirodha occurs in stage [1], whereas the nirodha of nibbana occurs in stage [3].

In addition to that, sannavedananirodha is not required to become an arahant. Why do I say that? because to realize sannavedananirodha you need to realize the 8 jhanas. But since some arahant become liberated by only realizing the 4 jhanas if follows that they can't and didn't realize sannavedananirodha.

I hope this helps to clarify things. Do you agree that these two nirodha are completly diferent? If so I can now re-ask my question.

Before I do, to answer your comment about contact, perhaps this is helpful.

I think you are conflating sannavedananirodha with "cessation of perception" cited in this sutta:
"And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...
In my understanding "cessation of perception" is completely different than sannavedananirodha. The sutta by stating "From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception" and so on... show that that leads to the realization of nibbana. However, "perception" here is not intended the way it is intended by sannavedananirodha. "Cessation of perception" is intended only as the perception of the 6 sense doors, yet awareness still occurs. In contrast, In Sannavedananirodha awarness itself ceases. Very different.

If you agree to the difference I made between the two nirodhas then we can move to my question.

Let me know,

Rob

atipattoh
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Did Buddha Permanently Dwell in Nibbana or was In-and-Out

Post by atipattoh » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:27 am

There is a word in Ud8.1, that is worth a look; “Tatrāpāhaṃ”, and there is an end of previous statement before this word. I'm trying to redefine this word,

Tatra :
1. there; in that place; to that place.
2. as loc. of ta(d): in that; in those; in regard to that; in that case; on that occasion.
3. (repeated): in that and that place, here and there; on this and that.

apa :
Well-defined directional prefix, meaning “away from, off” Usually as base-prefix (except with ā), & very seldom in compn. with other modifying prefixes (like sam, abhi etc.).

āha :
a perfect in meaning of pret. & pres. “he says or he said” he spoke, also spoke to somebody.


Upper statement from udāna 8.1 – Nirodha samapatti
“Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ, na viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ, na ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ, na nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ, nāyaṃ loko, na paraloko, na ubho candimasūriyā.

“There is that sphere, monks, where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun.
Lower Statement - Nibbana
Tatrāpāhaṃ, bhikkhave, neva āgatiṃ vadāmi, na gatiṃ, na ṭhitiṃ, na cutiṃ, na upapattiṃ; appatiṭṭhaṃ, appavattaṃ, anārammaṇamevetaṃ. Esevanto dukkhassā”ti.

with modification:
Apart from (in regards to) what being said (or Therefore), monks, surely there is no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth. It is (quite) without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”
Prior to nirodha samapatti description, we have this
the Gracious One was instructing, rousing, enthusing, and cheering the monks with a Dhamma talk connected with Emancipation. Those monks, after making it their goal, applying their minds, considering it with all their mind, were listening to Dhamma with an attentive ear.

Then the Gracious One, having understood the significance of it,
Surely, there was lots of dhamma talks going on before the utterance. So, "Apart from what being said" looks good.

Though Nirodha samapatti is not Nibbana, it is as good as Nibbana. I find it strange that the Buddha define Cessation of Perception and Feeling as within "a sphere"; but since it is a meditative attainment of a being, from a being point of view "a sphere" is proper, may be. Or to include "a sphere" on the upper statement, is to differentiate it from the lower statement?
Last edited by atipattoh on Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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