Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

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Dinsdale
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:43 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:46 am
If you take consciousness as the six sense consciousness , we won't be able to explain the dependent origination .
I think it is best to stick to the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2. You can make DO mean anything you want by redefining nidanas, but what is the point?
For example people who subscribe to contemporary theories of DO as a purely "mental" process don't like the fact that birth, aging and death are described in biological/physical terms, and for them it's an "inconvenient truth". But it is what it is, so get over it. :tongue:
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:46 am
Btw, the sankhara does not give rise to consciousness, but, Conditions the consciousness .
Not according to the DO suttas ( see SN12 ), which straightforwardly describe one nidana arising ( or ceasing) ) in dependence upon the previous one. There are two basic modes of conditionality in DO, sequential ( "When this arises, that arises..") and contemporaneous ( "While this is present, that is present..." ). I see nothing in the DO suttas which supports the idea of one nidana "shaping" another.

I still haven't seen a theory of DO which holds together coherently, while conforming to the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2.

I don't pretend to have the answer, but I suspect that nobody else does either - despite all the fancy theories. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

sentinel
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by sentinel » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:57 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:43 am
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:46 am
If you take consciousness as the six sense consciousness , we won't be able to explain the dependent origination .
I think it is best to stick to the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2. You can make DO mean anything you want by redefining nidanas, but what is the point?
For example people who subscribe to contemporary theories don't like the fact that birth, aging and death are described in biological/physical terms, and for them it's an "inconvenient truth". But it is what it is, so get over it. :tongue:
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:46 am
Btw, the sankhara does not give rise to consciousness, but, Conditions the consciousness .
Not according to the DO suttas ( see SN12 ), which straightforwardly describe one nidana arising ( or ceasing) ) in dependence upon the previous one. There are two basic modes of conditionality in DO, sequential ( "When this arises, that arises..") and contemporaneous ( "While this is present, that is present..." ). I see nothing in the DO suttas which supports the idea of one nidana "shaping" another.

I still haven't seen a theory of DO which holds together coherently, while conforming to the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2.

I don't pretend to have the answer, but I suspect that nobody else does either - despite all the fancy theories. :tongue:
I will offer my explanation in line with sn12.2.
Here is my understanding after reading the Agama .

Because of not understanding how the arisen of aggregates which led to suffering , this is called ignorance .
Due to ignorance , sankhara arises (self view)
With the arising of sankhara , leading to the nutriments consciousness (attachment to consciousness).
This attachment to consciousness in turn give rise to and conditioning the namarupa .
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

SarathW
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:46 pm

But , how does consciousness in the dependent origination or paticasamuppada is the consciousness without rebirth conditioning ?
Sorry again.
What I am saying is Vinnana in DO is the re-birth conditioned consciousness.
Vinnana Anidassana is the Vinnana of living arahants without rebirth conditioning.
I may be wrong though in regard to Vinnana Anidassana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:55 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:43 am
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:46 am
If you take consciousness as the six sense consciousness , we won't be able to explain the dependent origination .
I think it is best to stick to the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2. You can make DO mean anything you want by redefining nidanas, but what is the point?
For example people who subscribe to contemporary theories of DO as a purely "mental" process don't like the fact that birth, aging and death are described in biological/physical terms, and for them it's an "inconvenient truth". But it is what it is, so get over it. :tongue:

It is difficult to differentiate physical and mental because physical is perceived by the mind.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by sentinel » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:31 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:55 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:43 am
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:46 am
If you take consciousness as the six sense consciousness , we won't be able to explain the dependent origination .
I think it is best to stick to the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2. You can make DO mean anything you want by redefining nidanas, but what is the point?
For example people who subscribe to contemporary theories of DO as a purely "mental" process don't like the fact that birth, aging and death are described in biological/physical terms, and for them it's an "inconvenient truth". But it is what it is, so get over it. :tongue:

It is difficult to differentiate physical and mental because physical is perceived by the mind.
When you says physical and mental , that is a statement which came from mental , at the same time , your mentality accepted there is something existing called physical and mental aspects .
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

auto
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by auto » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:09 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.

in jhana there are besides jhana factors there are what constitutes namarupa.

working towards cessation of perception and feeling, it includes transcending form.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"'Among master trainers, he is said to be the unexcelled trainer of those people fit to be tamed': thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said?
"Steered by the elephant trainer, the elephant to be tamed runs in only one direction: east, west, north, or south. Steered by the horse trainer, the horse to be tamed runs in only one direction: east, west, north, or south. Steered by the ox trainer, the ox to be tamed runs in only one direction: east, west, north, or south.
"But steered by the Tathagata — worthy and rightly self-awakened — the person to be tamed fans out in eight directions.

"Possessed of form, he/she sees forms. This is the first direction.
"Not percipient of form internally, he/she sees forms externally. This is the second direction.
"He/she is intent only on the beautiful. This is the third direction.
"With the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' he/she enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fourth direction.
"With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' he/she enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the fifth direction.
"With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' he/she enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is the sixth direction.
"With the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, he/she enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is the seventh direction.
"With the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he/she enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the eighth direction.
what left is intention, attention, contact.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."[2]
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."[3]
Seclusion according to commentary is direct experience of unbinding. So after cessation of perception and feeling, mind inclines towards direct experience of unbinding.

8 jhanas are 8 directions, when emerging there is made contact with undirected. I wonder if 'directed' and 'undirected' are in same context in mn 44 and mn137. And what means 'direct' in direct experience?

Chat2enlighten
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by Chat2enlighten » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:46 pm

SamKR wrote
IMO, Vinnana is the consciousness that arises due to Sankhara which in turn is some process that arises due to Avijja. So, Vinnana of dependent origination is not simply just consciousness. It is the consciousness that is essentially based on Avijja and Sankhara. I find it helpful to understand Vinnana as "consciousness of", which implies two aspects:
Consciousness of a cognized object
Conscousness belonging to a cognizer subject
Thus Vinnana essentially is the consciousness that is present as soon as there is a division/separation/discrimination of a cognizer (subject) and a cognized (object). That is, the sense that "I'm cognizing the object" arises (or, the sense that I am in the world, seeing and interacting with the world, arises - and that's how Vinnana gives rise to jati (birth)).

The cognizer, the cognized, and the consciousness -- these three are empty (that is, essenceless and evanescent), yet appear to be present due to Avijja and Sankhara. When there is no Avijja and Sankhara, then Vinnana (Vinnana of dependent origination) does not arise.
Excellent is what you just pointed out! I did also think the same way about the definition of vinnana in the Sutta. It is not just cognizance but a feeling of observer arising out of cognizance. That is why it is vi-nana which is separation between nana(cognizance) and observer.
I perceive that is what vinnana meant by Buddha through out the Sutta and his sermon. Glad to find a fellow who has same opinion as me. :woohoo:

Dinsdale
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:04 pm

Chat2enlighten wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:46 pm
SamKR wrote
IMO, Vinnana is the consciousness that arises due to Sankhara which in turn is some process that arises due to Avijja. So, Vinnana of dependent origination is not simply just consciousness. It is the consciousness that is essentially based on Avijja and Sankhara. I find it helpful to understand Vinnana as "consciousness of", which implies two aspects:
Consciousness of a cognized object
Conscousness belonging to a cognizer subject
Thus Vinnana essentially is the consciousness that is present as soon as there is a division/separation/discrimination of a cognizer (subject) and a cognized (object). That is, the sense that "I'm cognizing the object" arises (or, the sense that I am in the world, seeing and interacting with the world, arises - and that's how Vinnana gives rise to jati (birth)).

The cognizer, the cognized, and the consciousness -- these three are empty (that is, essenceless and evanescent), yet appear to be present due to Avijja and Sankhara. When there is no Avijja and Sankhara, then Vinnana (Vinnana of dependent origination) does not arise.
Excellent is what you just pointed out! I did also think the same way about the definition of vinnana in the Sutta. It is not just cognizance but a feeling of observer arising out of cognizance. That is why it is vi-nana which is separation between nana(cognizance) and observer.
I perceive that is what vinnana meant by Buddha through out the Sutta and his sermon. Glad to find a fellow who has same opinion as me. :woohoo:
But if vinnana (sense-consciousness) ceases with avijja, then how is one then conscious (aware) of anything?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Chat2enlighten
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by Chat2enlighten » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:38 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:04 pm


But if vinnana (sense-consciousness) ceases with avijja, then how is one then conscious (aware) of anything?
According to my opinion vinnana is a feeling of I(me) in addition to cognizance, what should namarupa conditioned by vinnana mean?
It must be this physiopsychological entity assimilated to self that has body and mind as elements of I, five attached aggregates.
As stated in the truth of suffering, 5 attached aggregates are suffering itself.
When ignorance ceases, formation ceases, which leads to dissemble the feeling of I.
When the feeling of I ceases, physiopsychological entity of I ceases to exist.
When physiopsychological entity of I ceases to exist, the detailed actions of I also ceases to exist which are to see, hear, smell, taste, touch and conceive, not the actions itself but the actions with the feeling of I.
Therefore bhava arises all the time with ayatanas which means 6 actions originated with the feeling of I.
That's why Buddha used to say to remove 6 ayatanas from mind. 6入滅.

Dinsdale
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:58 pm

Chat2enlighten wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:38 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:04 pm


But if vinnana (sense-consciousness) ceases with avijja, then how is one then conscious (aware) of anything?
According to my opinion vinnana is a feeling of I(me) in addition to cognizance, what should namarupa conditioned by vinnana mean?
It must be this physiopsychological entity assimilated to self that has body and mind as elements of I, five attached aggregates.
As stated in the truth of suffering, 5 attached aggregates are suffering itself.
When ignorance ceases, formation ceases, which leads to dissemble the feeling of I.
When the feeling of I ceases, physiopsychological entity of I ceases to exist.
When physiopsychological entity of I ceases to exist, the detailed actions of I also ceases to exist which are to see, hear, smell, taste, touch and conceive, not the actions itself but the actions with the feeling of I.
Therefore bhava arises all the time with ayatanas which means 6 actions originated with the feeling of I.
That's why Buddha used to say to remove 6 ayatanas from mind. 6入滅.
Interesting, but it doesn't answer the question I posed. In the suttas (including DO) vinnana arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object, eg eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon eye and form. That's why I referred to vinnana as "sense-consciousness".

So I don't understand how there would be any sense-impressions (sights sounds, etc) if vinnana ceased. Or to put it another way, what would replace vinnana to enable awareness to continue?

In some DO suttas vinnana and nama-rupa are described as mutually dependent, but I don't think that is directly relevant to my question.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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cappuccino
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:27 pm

It is sensual craving, craving for existence, craving for non-existence. This, monks, is called 'the holding on to the burden.'

Bhāra Sutta: The Burden


The Noble Truth of the Origin (cause) of Suffering is this: . . . namely craving for sense pleasure, craving for existence and craving for non-existence (self-annihilation).

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Chat2enlighten
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by Chat2enlighten » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:30 pm

interesting, but it doesn't answer the question I posed. In the suttas (including DO) vinnana arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object, eg eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon eye and form. That's why I referred to vinnana as "sense-consciousness".

So I don't understand how there would be any sense-impressions (sights sounds, etc) if vinnana ceased. Or to put it another way, what would replace vinnana to enable awareness to continue?

In some DO suttas vinnana and nama-rupa are described as mutually dependent, but I don't think that is directly relevant to my question.

Vinnana is not just sense-consciousness. It is segregation between normal cognizance and the false feeling of I arising together whenever sense organ and sense object contact. The school of Consciousness Only calls that Manas, the 7th consciousness. That is what vinnana is.

justindesilva
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by justindesilva » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:46 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:09 am
What I am saying is Arahants do not have the Patisandi Vinnana (rebirth consciousness)
I think we can use Patisandi Vinnana as the synonymous for clinging Vinnana.
To my understanding there is no patisandi vinnana. It must be patisandi citta. It is the quallity of the mind (citta) at the moment of death that decides the next birth.
Further vinnana arises as the last of pancaskanda which are rupa, vedana sanna sankara vinnana. Though related vinnana and citta are different while consciousness or vinnana has no kusal or akusal properties where as citta bears kusal or akusal properties. Unless this matter is well realised we cannot understand the functioning of paticca samuppada which are the dependant co origination .

Dinsdale
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:33 pm

Chat2enlighten wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:30 pm
interesting, but it doesn't answer the question I posed. In the suttas (including DO) vinnana arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object, eg eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon eye and form. That's why I referred to vinnana as "sense-consciousness".

So I don't understand how there would be any sense-impressions (sights sounds, etc) if vinnana ceased. Or to put it another way, what would replace vinnana to enable awareness to continue?

In some DO suttas vinnana and nama-rupa are described as mutually dependent, but I don't think that is directly relevant to my question.

Vinnana is not just sense-consciousness. It is segregation between normal cognizance and the false feeling of I arising together whenever sense organ and sense object contact. The school of Consciousness Only calls that Manas, the 7th consciousness. That is what vinnana is.
Unfortunately the suttas don't describe or support your distinction between "normal cognisance" and "feeling of I". In the suttas, the feeling of I results from identification with the aggregates, regarding them as me and mine. It doesn't result from vinnana, which is straightforwardly described as sense-consciousness - nothing more.

In other words, the suttas don't say that the "feeling of I" arises in dependence on sense-base and sense-object, they simply say that sense-consciousness (vinnana) arises in dependence on this dyad.
See for example the first paragraph of SN35.93:
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.93/en/bodhi

You still haven't explained how there would be any awareness of sense-objects if vinnana ceased.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Chat2enlighten
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Re: Understanding Vinnana and Namarupa is the key to Nibbana?

Post by Chat2enlighten » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:40 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:33 pm

Unfortunately the suttas don't describe or support your distinction between "normal cognisance" and "feeling of I". In the suttas, the feeling of I results from identification with the aggregates, regarding them as me and mine. It doesn't result from vinnana, which is straightforwardly described as sense-consciousness - nothing more.

In other words, the suttas don't say that the "feeling of I" arises in dependence on sense-base and sense-object, they simply say that sense-consciousness (vinnana) arises in dependence on this dyad.
See for example the first paragraph of SN35.93:
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.93/en/bodhi

You still haven't explained how there would be any awareness of sense-objects if vinnana ceased.
I will refer to Udana 1.10. Please contemplate the meaning of what Buddha explained about Nibbana.

“In that case, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In what is seen there must be only what is seen, in what is heard there must be only what is heard, in what is sensed there must be only what is sensed, in what is cognized there must be only what is cognized. This is the way, Bāhiya, you should train yourself.

“And since for you, Bāhiya, in what is seen there will be only what is seen, in what is heard there will be only what is heard, in what is sensed there will be only what is sensed, in what is cognized there will be only what is cognized, therefore, Bāhiya, you will not be with that; and since, Bāhiya, you will not be with that, therefore, Bāhiya, you will not be in that; and since, Bāhiya, you will not be in that, therefore, Bāhiya, you will not be here or hereafter or in between the two—just this is the end of suffering.”

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