Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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SarathW
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Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:04 am

Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?
Why this does not apply to others such as Sotapanna?

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"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. [4] Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:03 am

I assume or guess only the arahant has perfected the ten factors. Where as possibly a once-returner and definitely a non-returner probably have perfected the eight factors but have not yet perfected the ten factors. As for a sotapanna, they probably have only perfected seven factors, i.e., have not perfected jhana. However, I think the sotapanna must definitely "taste" Right Release; otherwise they cannot have complete faith in the Path.

The key Pali word here appears to be "samannāgta". I found samannagata in the following sutta, where, at least in this sutta, it means it does not change:
There might be change in the four primary elements—earth, water, fire, and air—but a noble disciple endowed with experiential confidence in the Buddha would never change.

Siyā, bhikkhave, catunnaṃ mahābhūtānaṃ aññathattaṃ—pathavīdhātuyā, āpodhātuyā, tejodhātuyā, vāyodhātuyā—na tveva buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgatassa ariyasāvakassa siyā aññathattaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn55.17/en/sujato
Therefore, possibly, for the Arahant, right knowledge and right release do not change. They are permanent. But for the non-Arahant, right knowledge and right release are impermanent.
Sariputta, even if you have to carry me about on a bed, still there will be no change in the lucidity of the Tathagata's wisdom.

MN 12
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:18 am

I assume or guess only the arahant has perfected the ten factors.
Sorry. What are the ten factors?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:22 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:18 am
Sorry. What are the ten factors?
The ten factors appear to be listed below:
SarathW wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:04 am
Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of (1) right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of (2) right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of (3) right speech, right action... In one of (4) right action, right livelihood... In one of (5) right livelihood, right effort... In one of (6) right effort, right mindfulness... In one of (7) right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of (8) right concentration, right knowledge... In one of (9) right knowledge, (10) right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:25 am

The way I read it others (sotapanna etc) do not have the last two factors.
It does not make any sense.
What I think is Sotapanna etc have some right knowledge and right release.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:28 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:25 am
The way I read it others (sotapanna etc) do not have the last two factors. It does not make any sense.
It does not make sense unless you read the post I made replying to your question. This said, my post may not be correct but at least I am attempting to make sense of it. Maybe someone else can help you. Possibly you could respectfully asked one of the Bhikkhus. :)
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SarathW
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:44 am

... In one of right release, wrong release is abolished.
Another question.
What is what is wrong release.
If there is wrong release and right release there could be in between release.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by James Tan » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:21 am

Definitely the right knowledge and right release is not the Factor , since both of them are the Attainment Not the Path and because only what constitute the path is regarded as the Factor .

Factor definition : a circumstance, fact, or influence that contributes to a result.
:reading:

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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by Zom » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:10 am

Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?
Why this does not apply to others such as Sotapanna?
Because right knowledge (9) comes from jhana (8). Sotapanna doesn't have one, as once-returner. Non-returner has it, but his knowledge is not yet perfect and complete.

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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by auto » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:42 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
..Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a learner.
..Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation,' one is — through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance — released from what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a person who has fathomed the Dhamma.
one practices for other has it

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StormBorn
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by StormBorn » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:13 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:10 am
Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?
Why this does not apply to others such as Sotapanna?
Because right knowledge (9) comes from jhana (8). Sotapanna doesn't have one, as once-returner. Non-returner has it, but his knowledge is not yet perfect and complete.
Is that so? See below:
StormBorn wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:20 am
“Mahāli, in one case a bhikkhu becomes a stream enterer. Again, a bhikkhu becomes a once returner... non-returner... arahant.”
“Venerable sir, what is the Path, what is the Way (paṭipadā) for the realisation of these things?” “Mahāli, It is the Noble Eightfold Path, namely, Right View, Right Intention; Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood; Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Samadhi. This is the Path, this is the Way to the realisation of these things.”

- Dīgha Nikāya 6, Mahāli Sutta
“Bhikkhus, what is Right Samadhi? A bhikkhu, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, attains and abides in the first dhyana... second dhyana... third dhyana... fourth dhyana... This is called Right Samadhi.”

- Saṃyutta Nikāya 45.8, Vibhaṅga Sutta
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Zom
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by Zom » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:56 pm

Is that so? See below:
That is so. Stream-winners and once-returners haven't mastered samadhi yet. And none of them ever get rebirth in rupa-loka realm (to be born there you must have at least 1st jhana).

SarathW
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:24 pm

That is so. Stream-winners and once-returners haven't mastered samadhi yet. And none of them ever get rebirth in rupa-loka realm (to be born there you must have at least 1st jhana).
Interesting point. Have you got the source for it?
For instance, a person experiences the first Jhana will be an Anagami in this life itself?
For instance, say I experience the first Jhana now but not a Sotapanna as yet.
However, once I get the Dhamma eye means I will be an at least Anagami?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:27 am

StormBorn wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:13 pm
Is that so? See below:
The X + Y calculated does not prove the point. The path is long therefore it does not mean the stream-enterer has walked its whole length.

Jhāna and the Attainment of Stream-entry by Bhikkhu Bodhi seems well researched.
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StormBorn
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by StormBorn » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:15 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:27 am
StormBorn wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:13 pm
Is that so? See below:
The X + Y calculated does not prove the point. The path is long therefore it does not mean the stream-enterer has walked its whole length.
Yep. People even shorten the Path, when they want to justify their supposed attainments.

"atthikehi upaññātaṃ magga."
"The Path is born within the one who seeks it." - Vinaya :smile:
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:27 am
Jhāna and the Attainment of Stream-entry by Bhikkhu Bodhi seems well researched.
That' was written before Chinese Agamas changed his attitude regarding Pali Suttas, Abhidhammas, commentaries, etc. :lol: You would :rofl: if you read Bhikkhu Bodhi's intro to the earliest copy of Ven. Sujato's Sects & Sectarianism.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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