Self view and conceit

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James Tan
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Self view and conceit

Post by James Tan » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:09 pm

Self view is eliminated by the Sotapanna.

Does the (conceit or mana) or self identity is different from self view ?
:reading:

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cappuccino
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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by cappuccino » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:38 pm

Is conceit different from self view?

Yes.
“Life is anxiety”

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Zom
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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by Zom » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:26 pm

View is a View. It is an intellectual opinion. Conceit is the very core of "self-feeling" - purely psychological thing and has nothing to do with intellectual constructions.

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cappuccino
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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by cappuccino » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:56 pm

Just like a cloth, dirty & stained: Its owners give it over to a washerman, who scrubs it with salt earth or lye or cow-dung and then rinses it in clear water. Now even though the cloth is clean & spotless, it still has a lingering residual scent of salt earth or lye or cow-dung. The washerman gives it to the owners, the owners put it away in a scent-infused wicker hamper, and its lingering residual scent of salt earth, lye, or cow-dung is fully obliterated.
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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by SarathW » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:39 pm

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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rightviewftw
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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:34 am

This is how the lower fetters are taught;
https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle- ... nkya-sutta
5. “Here, Ānanda, an untaught ordinary person who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, abides with a mind obsessed and enslaved by identity view, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from the arisen identity view; and when that identity view has become habitual and is uneradicated in him, it is a lower fetter. He abides with a mind obsessed and enslaved by doubt … by adherence to rules and observances … by sensual lust [434] … by ill will, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen ill will; and when that ill will has become habitual and is uneradicated in him, it is a lower fetter.

6. “A well-taught noble disciple who has regard for noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, who has regard for true men and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, does not abide with a mind obsessed and enslaved by identity view; he understands as it actually is the escape from the arisen identity view, and identity view together with the underlying tendency to it is abandoned in him. He does not abide with a mind obsessed and enslaved by doubt … by adherence to rules and observances … by sensual lust … by ill will; he understands as it actually is the escape from the arisen ill will, and ill will together with the underlying tendency to it is abandoned in him.
A stream-enterer is not obsessed and enslaved by identity view but the tendency to crave which is based on notions of conceit
"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal? There being 'I am,' there comes to be 'I am here,' there comes to be 'I am like this' ... 'I am otherwise' ... 'I am bad' ... 'I am good' ... 'I might be' ... 'I might be here' ... 'I might be like this' ... 'I might be otherwise' ... 'May I be' ... 'May I be here' ... 'May I be like this' ... 'May I be otherwise' ... 'I will be' ... 'I will be here' ... 'I will be like this' ... 'I will be otherwise.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal.

"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external? There being 'I am because of this (or: by means of this),' there comes to be 'I am here because of this,' there comes to be 'I am like this because of this' ... 'I am otherwise because of this' ... 'I am bad because of this' ... 'I am good because of this' ... 'I might be because of this' ... 'I might be here because of this' ... 'I might be like this because of this' ... 'I might be otherwise because of this' ... 'May I be because of this' ... 'May I be here because of this' ... 'May I be like this because of this' ... 'May I be otherwise because of this' ... 'I will be because of this' ... 'I will be here because of this' ... 'I will be like this because of this' ... 'I will be otherwise because of this.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

"Thus there are 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external. These are called the 36 craving-verbalizations. Thus, with 36 craving-verbalizations of this sort in the past, 36 in the future, and 36 in the present, there are 108 craving-verbalizations.
is not eradicated and thus these ideas remain able to assail her mind even tho she is working to eliminate them. The difference is that she is not always assailed and is not enslaved or obsessed by these views, understands that those are nonsensical notions periodically assailing the mind, exactly why it is delusional, how it occurs and how to escape it.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by pegembara » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:49 am

I see. I hear. I think. I know. My thoughts. My feelings. That's identity view.
"I" experience these as arising and passing- not me, not mine but still there is a feeling "I am". That's conceit.
Because of that there is a this. Because of there-there is a here.

It is the realisation that all conditioned things are not self - Sabbe sankhara anatta.
The final step that even the unconditioned is not self is yet to be reached - Sabbe dhamma anatta

Subject and object dependently arise together. When there are things out there, there is a thing/I am in here.

This abandonment of subject/object dualities is largely contingent upon the correct apprehension of the
perceptual process, and thus the breaking down of the apparent inside/outside
dichotomy of the observer and the observed.

This existing, that exists;
this arising, that arises;
this not existing, that does not exist;
this ceasing, that ceases’.


When, Bahiya, there is no ‘you’
in connection with that,
there is no ‘you’ there.
When, Bahiya, there is no ‘you’ there,
then, Bahiya, you are neither here
nor there
nor in between the two.
This, just this, is the end of suffering.

Every nuance of object, sense organ and sense consciousness, every possible dimension of
subject and object, are explored and demonstrated to be no abiding place for an
independent identity.

From The Island by Amaro and Passano
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by uojm » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:31 am

Mana

Mana is translated as conceit.

In the sermons we can find there are ten bindings. The first three are cut with stream-entry, the next two weakened by once-returning, the first five with non-returning, and the remaining five on arahantship. Mana is one of those last fetters, so as long as we are not enlightened we have Mana, conceit.

Conceit is ‘excessive pride in oneself’. If we see someone acting selflessly, would we then say this person is acting with/because/out of conceit? That feels a bit weird right? So, how can we let this make sense?

‘I was’, ‘I saw’, ‘I did’, ‘I want’, ‘I said’, ‘I feel’, ‘I think’, … If someone would use these in several sentences within a short period of time, we could think that this person is really full of him/her self. We could say that he/she is ‘making it about him/her self’, hence conceit.

But suppose someone was asked a lot of questions like ‘Where were you?’, ‘What did you see?’, ‘What did you do?’ etc. Then answering them with ‘I was’, ‘I saw’, etc. wouldn’t automatically mean this person must be full of him/her self, even when those sentences are used within a short moment of time. So, it is more about ‘making it about you, while it is not about you’.

At stream-entry ‘not-self’ is understood. But still the ‘sense of self’ is left. This ‘sense of self’ is regarding things that are not-self. So this is ‘making it about self, while it is not about self’. In this way it got the characteristics of conceit, hence conceit.

Conceit, arrogance, pride, self-esteem and so on, are all manifestations of this ‘nature of conceit’. The most subtile one is this ‘sense of self’; it is the conceit ‘I am’ (asmimana).

source: http://bit.do/ezdhP

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Volovsky
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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by Volovsky » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:29 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:09 pm
Self view is eliminated by the Sotapanna.

Does the (conceit or mana) or self identity is different from self view ?
Sakkāyadiṭṭhi is cetasika diṭṭhi, conceit is cetasika māna. Two different things, they cannot even arise together. Here is a discussion why they cannot:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=31925&start=15#p482809.

In order to eliminate Sakkāyadiṭṭhi, one has to see dependent origination. To eliminate māna, one would need to eliminate craving.

I will give an example to illustrate the difference: let's say you see that your table is nothing else but four legs and a top, and you also understand the conditions, through which it came into being, and the conditions through which it will disappear. If this is the case, nobody can convince you that your table has some kind of soul or self. But you still might be fascinated by this table, and think your table is much better than mine.
Last edited by Volovsky on Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:32 am

Zom wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:26 pm
View is a View. It is an intellectual opinion. Conceit is the very core of "self-feeling" - purely psychological thing and has nothing to do with intellectual constructions.
So sakkāya-diṭṭhi is just an intellectual opinion? I thought it was more like a belief.
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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by Zom » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:36 am

So sakkāya-diṭṭhi is just an intellectual opinion? I thought it was more like a belief.
Well, a belief is an intellectual opinion too.

Here, something on the topic from MN64:

For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’ (sakkaya), so how could identity view (sakkaya-ditthi) possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency (anusaya) to identity view still lies within them.

So, in a little child, who has no intellectual understaning of things and concepts, there are no sakkaya-ditthis YET. But, because of underlying tendency they MAY arise when he grows up. MAY - if he will specualte on the topic. But most people don't do that (speculate I mean) at all, not even once in all their life 8-)

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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by James Tan » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:20 pm

AN 6.93:
Bhikkhus, there are these six cases of incapability. What six? One accomplished in view is (stream enterer)
(1) incapable of considering any conditioned phenomenon as permanent;
(2) incapable of considering any conditioned phenomenon as pleasurable;
(3) incapable of considering any phenomenon as a self;
(4) incapable of doing a grave act that brings immediate result;
(5) incapable of resorting to [the belief] that purity comes about through superstitious and auspicious acts;
(6) incapable of seeking a person worthy of offerings outside here.
These are the six cases of in capability.



If a person cannot consider anything to be the self, How can the thinking of
Superior
Equal
Inferior
Arises at all or possible to happen ?
:reading:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:01 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:20 pm
AN 6.93:
Bhikkhus, there are these six cases of incapability. What six? One accomplished in view is (stream enterer)
(1) incapable of considering any conditioned phenomenon as permanent;
(2) incapable of considering any conditioned phenomenon as pleasurable;
(3) incapable of considering any phenomenon as a self;
(4) incapable of doing a grave act that brings immediate result;
(5) incapable of resorting to [the belief] that purity comes about through superstitious and auspicious acts;
(6) incapable of seeking a person worthy of offerings outside here.
These are the six cases of in capability.



If a person cannot consider anything to be the self, How can the thinking of
Superior
Equal
Inferior
Arises at all or possible to happen ?
If i was to put it in simple terms, i would liken it to a bad habit which acts out when concentration lapses, IE you might know how to spell a word but keep making the same mistake when typing in a hurry.

Until one is fully rewired one still gets carried away on the "currents of lustful intent" or grasping in general, grasping one objectifies sense impression, thinks about the object and is assailed by related concepts in the world. So one explores sense-impressions, past future and present thus
“On seeing a form with the eye, one explores a form productive of joy, one explores a form productive of grief, one explores a form productive of equanimity. On hearing a sound with the ear…On smelling an odor with the nose…On tasting a flavor with the tongue…On touching a tangible with the body…On cognizing a mind-object with the mind, one explores a mind-object productive of joy, one explores a mind-object productive of grief, one explores a mind-object productive of equanimity. Thus there are six kinds of exploration with joy, six kinds of exploration with grief, and six kinds of exploration with equanimity. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The eighteen kinds of mental exploration should be understood.’
However one knows that the idea of self like other ideas are merely that, notions and ideas arising in dependence of intellect faculty. One does not hold the Intellect faculty to be the product of Intellect faculty, Intellect faculty is one concept and the ideas which arise are another. One does not hold feeling,... consciousness,... perceptions, .... forms, .... sights, ... smells, ... etc to be the constructs of intellect faculty neither but understands when one thinks about them names them, the name is one thing and the reality of arisen sense-impression is another.

Still tho one is prone to grasping at what the senses present because of ignorance, which feeds on lack of development of the spiritual faculties. When the faculties are neglected and appear weakly mind "leaks" and so lust penetrates it and if the faculties appear strongly lust does not penetrate it.

One does not think that next life i will be reborn, one understands that the notion of I is merely a sense-impression which arises and ceases and is a reality in itself, as are all other phenomena ie; blue, high pitch sound, low pitch sound, idea of justice, idea of a bicycle, of sense-impressions.

The senses came into being because of conditions namely courses of action which resulted in the formation of said senses and new courses of action will determine whether or not there is volition for future arising of sense-impressions. If the faculties do not come to culmination sense impressions will arise after the breakup of the body, if the faculties do culminate then there will be no conditions for arising of sense-impressions after the breakup of the formerly constructed formations by which there is the perceiving and conceiving of the world.

If one has ever tried Satipatthana meditation one can notice that one could note the the occurrence of noting, because noting is just another reality in itself, arising and ceasing. Thus it can be seen in the here and now that the reality of what you was noting is one thing, the concept which arose by means of objectification of the reality you were noting is another, the verbalization of the objectification by noting is is yet another reality apart from the two formerly mentioned, all arising and ceasing
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:33 pm, edited 10 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by auto » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:11 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
"No, friends, I do not say this 'I am' is the body,... consciousness, nor that it is other than the body,... consciousness. Yet with regard to the five groups of clinging,[1] 'I am' comes to me,[2] but I do not consider it (by way of wrong views) as 'This I am.' It is just like the scent of a blue, red or white lotus.[3] If someone were to say, 'The scent belongs to the petals, or the color, or the fibers,'[4] would he be describing it correctly?"
"Surely not, friend."
"Then how would he describe it correctly?"
"As the scent of the flower, would be the correct explanation."
when toilet smells then we say its smelling and not say and think smell of a toilet. Basically fetter is when we don't say smell of a toilet but say smell without its origin. But again thinking that smell belongs to poop is wrong too.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Self view and conceit

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:26 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:11 pm
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
"No, friends, I do not say this 'I am' is the body,... consciousness, nor that it is other than the body,... consciousness. Yet with regard to the five groups of clinging,[1] 'I am' comes to me,[2] but I do not consider it (by way of wrong views) as 'This I am.' It is just like the scent of a blue, red or white lotus.[3] If someone were to say, 'The scent belongs to the petals, or the color, or the fibers,'[4] would he be describing it correctly?"
"Surely not, friend."
"Then how would he describe it correctly?"
"As the scent of the flower, would be the correct explanation."
excellent sutta
Though, friends, an Ariyan disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters,[5] there still remains in him a subtle remnant[6] from among the five groups of clinging, a subtle remnant of the 'I'-conceit, of the 'I'-desire, an unextirpated lurking tendency[7] to think: 'I am.' Later on he dwells contemplating the rise and fall of the five groups of clinging,[8] and he sees: 'This is the body, this is its arising, this is its passing away. These are feelings,... perceptions,... mental formations,... this is consciousness, this is its arising, this is its passing away.'

"So, as he dwells thus in contemplation of the rise and fall of the five groups of clinging, this subtle remnant from among the five groups of clinging, this subtle remnant of the 'I'-conceit, of the 'I'-desire, this unextirpated lurking tendency to think: 'I am' is brought to an end.[9]
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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