Jambudipa

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
rajitha7
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by rajitha7 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:21 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:57 pm
What seems like a long shot is the apparent claim that Western historians should provide a truthful and reliable account of a region's history, and then, in the year 1890, start to systematically misrepresent things.
Well, Anton Führer claimed Buddha was born in Nepal - that was circa 1890. Its Anton Führer's discovery that used to this day. However, Anton Führer is a known fraudster. I have attached his charge sheet below.
Führer's archaeological career ended in disgrace. Under official instructions from the Government of India, Führer was relieved of his positions, his papers seized and his offices inspected by Vincent Arthur Smith on 22 September 1898.

Confronted by Smith about his archaeological publications and his report to the Government, Führer was obliged to admit "that every statement in it [the report] was absolutely false."

These activities were presaged by Führer's publications on Sanskrit texts and law which, as shown by Andrew Huxley, are effectively works of plagiarism, large portions being copied from the writing of Georg Bühler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Anton_F%C3%BChrer

Image
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

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Sam Vara
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:24 am

rajitha7 wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:39 pm
So when you read a reference in the Mahavamsa to Jambudipa, it refers to a part of the island. The area shown here.
...
That's a nice map, but when I checked out its provenance, Google only came up with
lord buddha born in sri lanka
.

It only appears in a small number of attempts, like this one, to convince internet communities that the Buddha was born in Sri Lanka. (Sutta Central was subjected to such an attempt recently, it seems). A cynic might almost believe that the map was recently created for just such a purpose, but I'm open to persuasion.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:29 am

WorldTraveller wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:18 am


Perhaps a mistake by the Moderator to paste Rajitha7's post under my name? Please correct it. Thanks.
Yes, that's exactly what it was. Humble apologies, WT. I've corrected it now.

rajitha7
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by rajitha7 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:30 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:24 am
That's a nice map, but when I checked out its provenance, Google only came up with
The map was originally sourced from the site below.

http://panhinda.sirisaddharmaya.net.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

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Sam Vara
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:37 am

rajitha7 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:21 am

Well, Anton Führer claimed Buddha was born in Nepal - that was circa 1890. Its Anton Führer's discovery that used to this day. However, Anton Führer is a known fraudster. I have attached his charge sheet below.
Was Fuhrer the only person ever to claim that the Buddha was born in Nepal, and is all the evidence for a Nepalese birth thereby discredited? Even if that were so, it would not mean that the Buddha wasn't born in Nepal, but it would mean that you had some sort of a case.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:40 am

rajitha7 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:30 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:24 am
That's a nice map, but when I checked out its provenance, Google only came up with
The map was originally sourced from the site below.

http://panhinda.sirisaddharmaya.net.
Yes, it's as I said. The only English text on that modern blog is material presenting the Sri Lankan birth hypothesis.

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budo
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by budo » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:40 am

Here is an article about Carbon Dating and Dr Fuhrer's case, the debate was actually between India and two contested areas in Nepal, no mentions about Sri Lanka..
A comprehensive final chapter assesses the validity of the Peppé dig using carbon dating. In dealing with recent discoveries in the region, and with modern interpretations of the evidence, Allen covers the grim, yet hilarious battle, between India and Nepal over the true location of the Buddha’s birthplace. Unlike the respective tourist boards, he concludes that we don’t yet know where exactly the Buddha was born and raised, though Allen favours the Nepalese claim that the ruins of Tilaurakot by the river Banganga are the site of Kapilavastu. And he vouches for the authenticity of Peppé’s discoveries.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/boo ... eview.html

rajitha7
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by rajitha7 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:41 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:37 am
Was Fuhrer the only person ever to claim that the Buddha was born in Nepal, and is all the evidence for a Nepalese birth thereby discredited?
There are a few - read below.
The statement of Dr. Cunningham in his book ‘The Ancient Geography of India’ bears testimony to this: No trace of Kapila has yet been discovered at the foot of the Himalayas. After the recognition of these areas as the birth-place of Lord Buddha, only recently (within sixty years) these names are being used in the maps and official documents.

And the noted historian Dr. Smith asserts that the place of the discovery of the Tarai inscription was never called Rummindei; it was a forged name given to it by archaeologist Dr. Fuhrer. The noted historian V.A.Smith challenges this statement of Dr. Fuhrer and comments – “This gives no further evidence for Fuhrer’s assertion and it appears that neither the Nepalese officials nor the hill-men called it Rumindei.” This was forgery of the name by Fuhrer in order to convert his discovery to a conclusion and to relate it with the name Lumbini.

Besides it has been proved that Buddhism had not been adopted in Nepal till the 6th century A.D.

Source
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

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Sam Vara
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:48 am

rajitha7 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:41 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:37 am
Was Fuhrer the only person ever to claim that the Buddha was born in Nepal, and is all the evidence for a Nepalese birth thereby discredited?
There are a few - read below.
That's not really the point. Many people can discredit Fuhrer and others, but unless it discredits all evidence for a Nepalese birth it is hardly relevant. And that blog doesn't exactly look like reputable scholarship...

I'm still looking for a reason that Westerners from different rival countries would have for embarking on a systematic programme of historical revisionism in the year 1890.

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budo
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by budo » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:55 am

Edit: It seems like the two most debated locations are Piprahwa and Tilaurakot, and not Sri Lanka.

Do you think this relic and the nearby shrine which has been carbon dated is fake?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piprahwa# ... xton_Peppe
In the 2013 documentary, Bones of the Buddha, epigraphist Harry Falk of Freie Universität Berlin confirmed the original interpretation that the depositors believed these to be the remains of the Buddha himself. Falk translates the inscription as "these are the relics of the Buddha, the Lord" and concludes that the reliquary found at Piprahwa did contain a portion of the ashes of the Buddha and that the inscription is authentic.[12]
http://www.piprahwa.com/analysis/

and carbon dating
Bricks used to build the stupa were made of rice straw, a grain of rice taken from one of them during the excavation is carbon dated to a range of 60-160AD, a date consistent with the final phase of the building of the stupa in the Kushan era following Ashoka.
and Peppe's letters (which Fuhrer got entangled with)
Leading academics meet at Harewood House to discuss the Piprahwa find. There are only two speakers at the conference who challenge the find’s authenticity. Letters kept by W. C. Peppé documenting key aspects of the find are brought to light for the first time
http://www.piprahwa.com/theletters

rajitha7
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by rajitha7 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:08 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:48 am
Was Fuhrer the only person ever to claim that the Buddha was born in Nepal, and is all the evidence for a Nepalese birth thereby discredited?
Well, many things discredit Nepal birth. Some require knowledge of the Tripitaka perhaps the historians do not possess.

For example, all these rivers flow towards the east says the Pali Tripitaka.
“Mendicants, the Yamunā river slants, slopes, and inclines to the east. …” “… the Aciravatī river …” “… the Sarabhū river …” “… the Mahī river …” “… all the great rivers …”

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.128-132/en/sujato
However, they do not in Nepal/India. Here they flow towards the south.

Image

The rivers flow to the East in the island as shown below. The old map with the rivers including the "Neranjana" here.

Image

Source

The "Ganges" river (Present day Mahaveli river) marked in Ptolomy map of the island flowing towards the East.

Image
Last edited by rajitha7 on Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

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budo
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by budo » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:12 am

The first map actually fits the description pretty well, the rivers DO slant and incline towards the east.

The second map is barely discernible..

rajitha7
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by rajitha7 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:16 am

budo wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:12 am
The first map actually fits the description pretty well, the rivers DO slant and incline towards the east.
Well, imagine Buddha was standing somewhere in Nepal.

How would he describe the direction? South or the East?
budo wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:55 am
Edit: It seems like the two most debated locations are Piprahwa and Tilaurakot, and not Sri Lanka.

Do you think this relic and the nearby shrine which has been carbon dated is fake?
All Buddhas relics found outside of the island of Sri Lanka are most probably fake unless taken from the island originally.
budo wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:12 am
The second map is barely discernible..
I have fixed it. Its marked in red colour.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

TRobinson465
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:07 am

Was there also a Magadha with a capital called Rajgir, and Kosala with a capital called Savatthi in sri lanka at about this time? Ruled by people named Bimbasara, Ajatashatru and Pasenadi? If so it seems almost like Sri Lanka and India were stealing each others names.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

rajitha7
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Re: Jambudipa

Post by rajitha7 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:21 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:07 am
Was there also a Magadha with a capital called Rajgir, and Kosala with a capital called Savatthi in sri lanka at about this time? Ruled by people named Bimbasara, Ajatashatru and Pasenadi? If so it seems almost like Sri Lanka and India were stealing each others names.
The entire Buddha history including the Askoka empire is from Sri Lankan Chronicles. The historians used the Sri Lankan ones to build a history for India. None of Indian history is based on Indian works.

There are some missing information particularly with regard to Asoka but there is enough and more to prove Buddha was born in the island.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

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