Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
James Tan
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:37 am

I was wondering what realm does the Mara reside at ? It was said the Mara could take hold of the Brahma (god) , is this true ? What makes the Brahma so vulnerable to the Mara ?
Isn't there a story about an arahant retrogress because the Mara assumed his(/her?) body ?

Thanks .
:reading:

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11874
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by DNS » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:01 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:37 am
I was wondering what realm does the Mara reside at ?
Paranimmita-vasavatti deva realm. Number 11 on this list:
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/31_planes_of_existence

Note: it is not a woeful realm (apaya) and is actually a deva realm.

James Tan
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:09 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:01 am
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:37 am
I was wondering what realm does the Mara reside at ?
Paranimmita-vasavatti deva realm. Number 11 on this list:
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/31_planes_of_existence

Note: it is not a woeful realm (apaya) and is actually a deva realm.
Oh okay thanks .
But , if you don't mind asking , only the Leader of this realm is called Mara and is evil minded ? Does other occupants deva of this realm is of similar evil minded or mostly good minded ?

It was said that the Hindu God Shiva is Mara ?
:reading:

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11874
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by DNS » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:19 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:09 am
Oh okay thanks .
But , if you don't mind asking , only the Leader of this realm is called Mara and is evil minded ? Does other occupants deva of this realm is of similar evil minded or mostly good minded ?
I think they are mostly good-minded. They enjoy sense pleasures created by others. In English it is known as "Devas Wielding Power over the Creation of Others."
It was said that the Hindu God Shiva is Mara ?
Shiva is known as the "destroyer" in some Hindu sects, so that would make some sense, I suppose.

James Tan
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:19 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:19 am

..........
Do you think a lower realms deva can have accessed to higher realms , such as the Tusita deva reaching the Brahma in the Form realm ?
:reading:

User avatar
LG2V
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:40 pm

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by LG2V » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:27 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:37 am
I was wondering what realm does the Mara reside at ? It was said the Mara could take hold of the Brahma (god) , is this true ? What makes the Brahma so vulnerable to the Mara ?
Isn't there a story about an arahant retrogress because the Mara assumed his(/her?) body ?

Thanks .
I think that Brahma can be influenced by Mara because first jhana, which is the level at which Brahma resides, can still be influenced by discursive thinking and outside sounds. Mara himself is said to be at a lower level of heaven than Brahma.
Here are some excellent sites for giving free Dana (Click-Based Donation):
http://freerice.comhttp://greatergood.com/www.ripple.orgwww.thenonprofits.com

James Tan
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:37 am

LG2V wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:27 am
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:37 am
I was wondering what realm does the Mara reside at ? It was said the Mara could take hold of the Brahma (god) , is this true ? What makes the Brahma so vulnerable to the Mara ?
Isn't there a story about an arahant retrogress because the Mara assumed his(/her?) body ?

Thanks .
I think that Brahma can be influenced by Mara because first jhana, which is the level at which Brahma resides, can still be influenced by discursive thinking and outside sounds. Mara himself is said to be at a lower level of heaven than Brahma.
I suppose the question is , can a person in level one reaching level two which is higher ? Normally , if you are in the ground floor of a shopping centre , you won't be able to reach say 5th floor , unless using lift or elevator .
:reading:

User avatar
Volovsky
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by Volovsky » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:49 am

LG2V wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:27 am
I think that Brahma can be influenced by Mara because first jhana, which is the level at which Brahma resides, can still be influenced by discursive thinking and outside sounds.
“And where is it that Māra and his following cannot go? Here, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. This bhikkhu is said to have blindfolded Māra, to have become invisible to the Evil One by depriving Māra’s eye of its opportunity.
MN 25

But according to Abhidhamma, Brahma is not always in jhāna, and he can have some kāma loka consciousnesses. I think Mara can influence him through them.

User avatar
LG2V
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:40 pm

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by LG2V » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:56 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:37 am
I suppose the question is , can a person in level one reaching level two which is higher ? Normally , if you are in the ground floor of a shopping centre , you won't be able to reach say 5th floor , unless using lift or elevator .
I suppose I'm mistaken in this case. Volovsky gives a pretty good answer.
Volovsky wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:49 am
“And where is it that Māra and his following cannot go? Here, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. This bhikkhu is said to have blindfolded Māra, to have become invisible to the Evil One by depriving Māra’s eye of its opportunity.
MN 25

But according to Abhidhamma, Brahma is not always in jhāna, and he can have some kāma loka consciousnesses. I think Mara can influence him through them.

I suppose that's correct, if there's scriptural evidence to back it up.

I've had personal experience with first jhana being influenced by the speech of others, though. It didn't necessarily stir up defilements, but I did pick up on it and it did influence my meditation. Perhaps that was just access concentration; but I'm even skeptical of that because I've gone into second jhana and suspended discursive thoughts all together. This is why my guess was that Mara could influence Brahma. I'll have to reevaluate my experience somewhat if it doesn't line up with the suttas.

I wonder if the sutta is referring to the literal Mara, or Mara as a figurative incarnation of sensuality. The latter would make more sense to me, but it could be the former, or both.
Here are some excellent sites for giving free Dana (Click-Based Donation):
http://freerice.comhttp://greatergood.com/www.ripple.orgwww.thenonprofits.com

justindesilva
Posts: 824
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by justindesilva » Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:03 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:37 am
I was wondering what realm does the Mara reside at ? It was said the Mara could take hold of the Brahma (god) , is this true ? What makes the Brahma so vulnerable to the Mara ?
Isn't there a story about an arahant retrogress because the Mara assumed his(/her?) body ?

Thanks .
When lord budda was determined to be enlightened it is said that mara sent his three daughters Tanha , Rathi, Ranga ( desire lust and greed and plessurable nature of kama), was sent to distract lord budda. Lord budda was said to have overcome them with samma samadhi. Therefore it could be that mara is our own kamacanda or disire for pleasure and mara is our own pleadurable perception.

User avatar
Volovsky
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by Volovsky » Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:57 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:03 pm
Therefore it could be that mara is our own kamacanda or disire for pleasure and mara is our own pleadurable perception.
But Buddha encountered Mara even after enlightenment, when he had no kamacanda anymore.

James Tan
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:51 pm

LG2V wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:56 am
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:37 am
I suppose the question is , can a person in level one reaching level two which is higher ? Normally , if you are in the ground floor of a shopping centre , you won't be able to reach say 5th floor , unless using lift or elevator .
I suppose I'm mistaken in this case. Volovsky gives a pretty good answer.
Volovsky wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:49 am
“And where is it that Māra and his following cannot go? Here, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. This bhikkhu is said to have blindfolded Māra, to have become invisible to the Evil One by depriving Māra’s eye of its opportunity.
MN 25

But according to Abhidhamma, Brahma is not always in jhāna, and he can have some kāma loka consciousnesses. I think Mara can influence him through them.

I suppose that's correct, if there's scriptural evidence to back it up.

I've had personal experience with first jhana being influenced by the speech of others, though. It didn't necessarily stir up defilements, but I did pick up on it and it did influence my meditation. Perhaps that was just access concentration; but I'm even skeptical of that because I've gone into second jhana and suspended discursive thoughts all together. This is why my guess was that Mara could influence Brahma. I'll have to reevaluate my experience somewhat if it doesn't line up with the suttas.

I wonder if the sutta is referring to the literal Mara, or Mara as a figurative incarnation of sensuality. The latter would make more sense to me, but it could be the former, or both.
Well , in the text it was said the Mara Take Hold or Overtake the Brahma body and the Brahma was Unconscious , that's mean Mara can Overtake Anyone body , isn't that illogical ?
:reading:

SamKR
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by SamKR » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:37 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:19 am
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:09 am
It was said that the Hindu God Shiva is Mara ?
Shiva is known as the "destroyer" in some Hindu sects, so that would make some sense, I suppose.
No, Shiva is not Mara. What is the source of this view?

Shiva has the (or, one of the) highest status in Hinduism -- he is considered the Deva of the Devas.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11874
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by DNS » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:43 am

SamKR wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:37 am
DNS wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:19 am
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:09 am

Shiva is known as the "destroyer" in some Hindu sects, so that would make some sense, I suppose.
No, Shiva is not Mara. What is the source of this view?

Shiva has the (or, one of the) highest status in Hinduism -- he is considered the Deva of the Devas.
Mara is a deva too, according to Buddhism. But you're right, we're really mixing traditions/religions here. Shiva is Shiva (Hinduism) and Mara is Mara (Buddhism).

justindesilva
Posts: 824
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Which realm does the Mara belongs to ?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:52 am

DNS wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:43 am
SamKR wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:37 am
DNS wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:19 am
No, Shiva is not Mara. What is the source of this view?

Shiva has the (or, one of the) highest status in Hinduism -- he is considered the Deva of the Devas.
Mara is a deva too, according to Buddhism. But you're right, we're really mixing traditions/religions here. Shiva is Shiva (Hinduism) and Mara is Mara (Buddhism).

Shiva synonamous with Ishwar are hindu idols of worship. Shiva is their mighty lord of creation and or destruction. Shiva is been offered with vows to have babies by Hindu women. Shiva cannot be embraced in to buddhism & especially theravada.
I reiterate the fact that mara does not exist physically but
is ones own fabrication created with loba dosa moha
symbolised as Tanha Rathi Ranga which tried to deviate lord budda in to the earthly world.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], denise, gonflable, rightviewftw and 110 guests