What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

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AgarikaJ
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by AgarikaJ »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:29 pm
AgarikaJ wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:25 pmThe training rules only pertain to those who have Gone Forth.
Sorry but this is a literal interpretation rather than the spirit of the Dhamma.
Banthe, I am confused now if there was a Going Forth or not. It seems to have been indicated quite strongly towards this layperson and of course I must defer to your higher wisdom.

Frankly, additionally I am confused now on how the Dhamma must be interpreted, Banthe. Previous posts would have pointed to a literal, uncompromising stance on it. This latter one seems to say that a very loose interpretation what the Dhamma could be is at least just as acceptable.

Pls advise and illuminate.

:anjali:
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
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DooDoot
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by DooDoot »

AgarikaJ wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:46 pm Pls advise
pācittiya 8
"yo pana bhikkhu anupasampannassa uttarimanussadhammaṃ āroceyya, bhūtasmiṃ pācittiyaṃ."

Not to announce to a layman a realisation that has been achieved. If a bhikkhu announces to a layman or to a sāmaṇera, a realisation partaking with a jhāna nature or with a stage of ariyā, and this realisation has genuinely been achieved, he commits a pācittiya.

https://en.dhammadana.org/sangha/vinaya ... m#ch-----8
:focus:
AgarikaJ wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:46 pm Pls illuminate.
The mind was upheld by the vitakka and vicāra, and stabilized by the bliss. At that moment, you could say it was dependent on the power of absorption (jhāna) if you like, I don’t know. That’s just how it was. If you want to call it absorption, then go ahead. Before long, vitakka and vicāra were abandoned, rapture disappeared and [what remained was] the mind [with its] single focus (ekaggatā) [and the] samādhi [that] was [already] firmly established, and the lucid calm that is a foundation for wisdom had arisen.

:twothumbsup:

As I originally posted: "Otherwise, it could simply be a mistranslation from Thai into English." :smile:
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Volo
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by Volo »

One thing to be aware when reading masters from the Thai forest tradition is that the way they use certain pali terms might have nothing to do the way it is used in the suttas. This sometimes makes reading of them very confusing. The most notable example is Ajahn Tate, who stated (many times) that jhāna is actually a wrong concentration and that it is falling into bhavańga, but one should practice "samma-samadhi" instead of jhāna. He described something he had experienced as wrong and for whatever reason decided to call it "jhāna". If we understand jhāna as in the suttas, it would be a total nonsense, although there might had been some rational in what he was saying. The same might be true for Ajahn Chaa's ekaggata. This happens with many Thai masters, I think many of them were simply unfamiliar with the meaning of the words they used.

I personally find such way to present things to be too confusing, and therefore barely read Thai forest masters. It might be interesting if you are looking for personal experience, but I wouldn't study Buddhism by their writings.
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DooDoot
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by DooDoot »

Volovsky wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:18 pm One thing to be aware when reading masters from the Thai forest tradition is that the way they use certain pali terms might have nothing to do the way it is used in the suttas.
I think Ajahn Chah understood jhana but often those who claim to be his disciples don't. The explanation below by Ajahn Chah appears accurate. :meditate:
Ajahn Chah wrote: For instance, when we talk about the first level of absorption, we say it has five factors. Along with vitakka and vicāra, pīti (rapture) arises with the theme of contemplation and then sukha (happiness). These four things all lie together in the mind established in tranquillity. They are as one state.

The fifth factor is ekaggatā or one-pointedness. You may wonder how there can be one-pointedness when there are all these other factors as well. This is because they all become unified on that foundation of tranquillity. Together they are called a state of samādhi. They are not everyday states of mind, they are factors of absorption. There are these five characteristics, but they do not disturb the basic tranquillity. There is vitakka, but it does not disturb the mind; vicāra, rapture and happiness arise but do not disturb the mind. The mind is therefore as one with these factors. The first level of absorption is like this.

We don't have to call it first jhāna, second jhāna, third jhāna and so on, let's just call it 'a peaceful mind'. As the mind becomes progressively calmer it will dispense with vitakka and vicāra, leaving only rapture and happiness. Why does the mind discard vitakka and vicāra? This is because, as the mind becomes more refined, the activities of vitakka and vicāra are too coarse to remain. At this stage, as the mind leaves off vitakka and vicāra, feelings of great rapture can arise, tears may gush out. But as the samādhi deepens rapture, too, is discarded, leaving only happiness and one-pointedness, until finally even happiness goes and the mind reaches its greatest refinement. There are only equanimity and one-pointedness, all else has been left behind. The mind stands unmoving.

http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/On_Meditation1.php
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ToVincent
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by ToVincent »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:20 pm The above is absolutely wrong. How many times must this heresy be repeated? Ekaggata is a factor of the 1st jhana in many suttas
References please.

As usual, the only serious reference I can think about (that is to say suttas with parallels in the Samyutta - like it or not,) have the following extracts:

Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple gains samadhi, gains one-pointedness of citta, having made release the object (lit. having undertaken the relinquishing of the support). This is called the faculty of samadhi.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā labhati samādhiṃ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṃ—idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, samādhindriyaṃ.
SN 48.9

It is indeed to be expected, venerable sir, that a noble disciple who has faith, whose energy is aroused, and whose mindfulness is established, will gain samadhi, will gain one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. That samadhi of his, venerable sir, is his faculty of samadhi.
Saddhassa hi, bhante, ariyasāvakassa āraddhavīriyassa upaṭṭhitassatino etaṃ pāṭikaṅkhaṃ yaṃ vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā labhissati samādhiṃ, labhissati cittassa ekaggataṃ. Yo hissa, bhante, samādhi tadassa samādhindriyaṃ.
SN 48.50

Samadhi: https://justpaste.it/5x298
Citassa: https://justpaste.it/211kn
Ekaggatā - Ekagga - Ekodi: https://justpaste.it/6wiv9
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atipattoh
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by atipattoh »

At the end of AN 9.41, The Buddha declared:
when I had entered into and withdrawn from these nine progressive meditative attainments in both forward and reverse order, I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.

Yato ca kho ahaṃ, ānanda, imā nava anupubbavihārasamāpattiyo evaṃ anulomapaṭilomaṃ samāpajjimpi vuṭṭhahimpi, athāhaṃ, ānanda, sadevake loke samārake sabrahmake sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadevamanussāya ‘anuttaraṃ sammāsambodhiṃ abhisambuddho’ti paccaññāsiṃ.
Translation has been keep as forward and reverse order, if “order” process is to be for both forward and reverse, then it has to be translated as “reverse and forward order”, then this reverse order (pre-Jhana) is coarse in loop zero. The forward order (post-Jhana) is the arising of the consciousness process, so fast that Jhana attainder may not even notice it, missing out. The attainments is mentioned in the sequence of anulomapatilumaṃ, not patiloma-anulomaṃ; thus “reverse and forward order” is not valid. In order to stick to anulomapatiloma, “order” would then valid for forward, not for the reverse. In this post I have introduces the word “mode”, the process is simply much more complex. In sutta central, there was a question by a user on AN 9.42. How I treat AN 9.42 is completely different from what it appears in the sutta, but i'm not going into that; but keeping to its original format. There, I describe a rough general process of anulomapatiloma . (When I write this post, notice that the title has been changed, very wise; though the discussion started off with validating AN 9.42). There I excuse my self from touching the liberation/release, as to how I would understand it, thus I mention only “V” curve.

Over there, i described this
Sense Base
J1, J2, J3, J4
Infinitude of Space
infinitude of Consciousness
Nothingness
Neither Perception Nor Non-perception
Cessation
From the sequels, if i were to draw a curve in term of subtle-ness, we have a downward slope, a complete negative, a -ve derivatives, now that would be strange. If this is the sequence of reality, then upon one enter Jhana 4, the push will force a one way trip to cessation. How vinnana is going to work would be even more inconceivable. I wander if live would be possible?
Here is the sequence as i see.
Sense Base + B(reverse manner, ie b5,b4,b3,b2,b1); I will ignore this sequence of coarse ‘Infinitude of Space’ to ‘ “cessation” or in fact here is 'suspension’ not cessation, my concern is only validating AN 9.42
A) J1, J2, J3, J4
B)
b1) Cessation
b2) Neither Perception Nor Non-perception
b3) Nothingness
b4) Consciousness
b5) Space
C) Sense Base
Reality phenomenal is either one of J1 to J4 but J4 is preferred, upon exit (A) passes thru (B), back to Sense Base ( C ). What we have is a ‘V’ curve, that is the basic reason why one come back from J1 to J4, and of course b1 to b5, exception on b1 at death.
(B) is a very subtle and super fast process that is mostly goes undetected, even for a person that has attain Jhana 1, though it could but likely to go undetected. AN9.42 after J4 is rather a “Selective” Process driven by the result of overcoming the cause of that specific forward arupa.

b5 is less subtle compare to b4, thus upon exit J4, passes by b1 to b4, enter into b5. exit
Enter J4, exit J4, passes by b1 to b3, enter b4, exit, ignore b5
Enter J4, exit J4, passes by b1 to b2, enter b3, exit, ignore b4 & b5
Enter J4, exit J4, passes by b1, enter b2, exit, ignore b3 to b5
Enter J4, exit J4, enter b1
The process is actually a circle.
Sense Base → Coarse b5–> b4 → b3 (opening) → perception of nimitta → b1 of 5 Sense Base → Jhana 1 to 4
From J1-4 --> b1 --> b2 --> b3 --> b4 --> b5 --> back to Sense Base

Note, I'm treating AN9.42 as it is, a sutta mirror from Maha Vagga like AN9.34. I have some other taught, but prefer to keep it to my self.
Back to Buddha declaration, do take note of this term “anupubba” vihāra ”
The agama translation for anupubba and anulomapatiloma is in these 5 words, “順逆地入、出”.

This is how I define the mode, in the form of loops.
Loop 0 - a coarse Forward Order-b5,b4,b3,b2 , (pre-Jhana - suspense sense base) Jhana, (post-Jhana) (Arising of consciousness (fine) b1,b2,b3,b4,b5 - missed), Sense Base

Loop 1 - Emptiness heart’s release, coarse b4, b3, b2, (pre-Jhana - suspense sense base) Jhana, (post-Jhana) (Arising of consciousness (fine) b1,b2,b3,b4 – missed; infinitude b5 immersion, exit

Loop 2 – Limitless heart's release , coarse b3, b2, (pre-Jhana - suspense sense base) Jhana, (post-Jhana) (Arising of consciousness (fine) b1,b2,b3 – missed; infinitude b4 immersion, exit

Loop 3 – Overcoming cause of Nothingness hearts's release, coarse b2, (pre-Jhana - suspense sense base) Jhana, (post-Jhana) (consciousness un-established (fine) b1,b2 – missed; infinitude b3 immersion, exit, consciousness establishment (fine)

Loop 4 – Overcoming cause of Sign hearts's release, (pre-Jhana - suspense sense base) Jhana, (post-Jhana) (Consciousness un-established) b1 – missed; infinitude b2 immersion, exit, consciousness establishment (fine)

Loop 5 - Jhana, cessation as in Maha Vagga AN9.34

If you have a piece of paper and pen, draw this “V” curve. Some work that you could do.
Loop 0, first “V”. The left stroke 45 degree down at 50mm length (defined as “forward” representation), a second stroke, without joining the bottom, bottom up 45 degree 20mm length (“reverse” representation). So we have a mirror image of a “tick” sign.

Loop 1, a second “V”, left stroke 20mm length, continue from edge of first “tick” sign, a gap, right stroke 15mm.

Loop 2, left stroke 15mm length, continue from edge of 1 st “V”, a gap, right stroke 10mm.

Loop 3, left stroke 10mm length, continue from edge of 2 rd “V”, a gap, right stroke 5mm.

Loop 4, left stroke 5mm length, continue from edge of 3 rd “V”, a gap, right stroke 3mm.

Loop 5, left stroke 3mm length, continue from edge of 4 th “V”, NO thing continue after end of Jhana; ceased.

Now we have a saw-tooth waveform, a damping one. Prior to drawing this curve, I too, think that translating ekaggata as singleness is a very good choice. But after my post in sutta central, it change; when one question arises. If I were to translate ekaggata as singleness, how does it explain post-Jhana cessation? Is reverse mode arupa attainments has no ekaggata; is it not samma-samadhi?

Singleness postulating that there is a constant flat line after cessation, like a transient damping curve of a servo motor, that finally reaches a constant speed. That is exactly what happen to Mahayana, Theravada do not deserve this same outcome; even if it is not understood in this way now, in time, it will be.

Now, on the same paper, draw half moon curves for the “forward” representation as though they are coming out of the paper; and also half moon curve for the “reverse” representation as though they are out of the back of the paper. Then rotate the paper 90 degree, what do you see? Just like a man circling, climbing a mountain. At the top of the mountain, there is the peak, the end of it. A converging spiral curve; ends at the center and NO-thing continue when it is view from bottom, upward.

Ekaggata just means directing toward one (empty) target , one-pointedness; regardless of if he is at the foot of the mountain, middle of the mountain or near the peak, whether he is at the north east south or west, his heart is only directed toward that one point. One-pointedness, although literally appear to be narrow, but in actual fact, covering a bigger picture, should not be understood as 2 dimensional one single line.

So, this is my understanding of ekaggata, NO-thing continue at cessation, Nibbana. When one says that taking “nibbana object” at cessation, it does not mean anything, that is only for communication. Nibbana is not unconditioned, nibbana process is un-conditioning process. Though the last station of un-conditioning is at forward nevasaññānāsañña, it does not go further than that; there is NO-thing to be overcome, NO-thing to be unconditioned at cessation.

So, ekaggata is one-pointedness!
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:52 am
This might explain why his disciplines such as Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Amaro give those rambling style of Dhamma talks. While I do not doubt the moral virtue of these monks, some Pali sutta studies might help them give more accurate Dhamma talks.

Regardless I disagree 100% with Ajahn Chah above because I was misguided once in my life due to faith in a guru like him. In my experience, the suttas are the supreme guide.

Agree
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by SarathW »

If there is no Pithi and Sukha in the fourth Jhana what happiness you have with Ekagata?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by SarathW »

SarathW wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:43 am If there is no Pithi and Sukha in the fourth Jhana what happiness you have with Ekagata?
I bump the post in case the above question is overlooked.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by SarathW »

Interesting Hindu video.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
auto
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by auto »

ekaggata(union with self) is before cessation of phenomena (nibbana, blackout) during blackout you will do an act where you don't have self awareness and no control. And after that you know about the context of phenomena is not self, impermanent and suffering.

when you know phenomena as anatta.. its when you can practice towards stop relying on the nutriment regards to what the being(the all) arises.
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by SarathW »

auto wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:37 pm ekaggata(union with self) is before cessation of phenomena (nibbana, blackout) during blackout you will do an act where you don't have self awareness and no control. And after that you know about the context of phenomena is not self, impermanent and suffering.

when you know phenomena as anatta.. its when you can practice towards stop relying on the nutriment regards to what the being(the all) arises.
Could you explain what blackout mean?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
auto
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by auto »

SarathW wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:26 pm
auto wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:37 pm ekaggata(union with self) is before cessation of phenomena (nibbana, blackout) during blackout you will do an act where you don't have self awareness and no control. And after that you know about the context of phenomena is not self, impermanent and suffering.

when you know phenomena as anatta.. its when you can practice towards stop relying on the nutriment regards to what the being(the all) arises.
Could you explain what blackout mean?
when you are self aware then every activity is like work, when work is done you "pass out" and do a contact that contact happen involuntarily, then you are bound to search for something what would wake you up(clinging)

nibbana is when phenomena comes to an end except darkness then you will come down of it and do a contact.

i wonder if contact(DO link) is involuntary uncontrollable selfless action.
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by auto »

SarathW wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:37 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:43 am If there is no Pithi and Sukha in the fourth Jhana what happiness you have with Ekagata?
I bump the post in case the above question is overlooked.
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... smells cognizable via the nose... tastes cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strings of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure.
see the first jhana,
"Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him. Just as pain arises as an affliction in a healthy person for his affliction, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality that beset the monk is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant.
pleasure born from withdrawal. So its pretty much counters the wordly way, where you eat cake to feel pleasure but the pleasure born from withdrawal is better.
So the term withdrawal, does it mean the withdrawal symptoms of addiction are an element regards to what pleasure will rise what is accompanied by directed thought &evaluation. Also the pleasure from drugs is affliction to him.

this is something what every alcoholic would understand when tell them that.
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Re: What exactly is Ekagata. (One pointedness)?

Post by SarathW »

these five strings of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure.
:goodpost:

What about the pleasure of the mind? (sixth sense?)
Isn't Pithy and Sukha related to mind, not to the five strings of sensuality?
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