Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Zom
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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by Zom » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:54 pm

A Non-Returner can not feel them
Again - pleasure or craving? Arahant can experience pleasure.

Alīno
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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by Alīno » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:08 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:54 pm
A Non-Returner can not feel them
Again - pleasure or craving? Arahant can experience pleasure.
Oh, i see !
So he can feel pleasurable sensual feeling, but have no clinging and craving toward it.Thanks

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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by cappuccino » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:47 pm

For a person to indulge in sensual pleasures without sensual passion, without sensual perception, without sensual thinking: That isn't possible.

Alagaddupama Sutta

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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by Alīno » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:42 am

:anjali:

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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by Zom » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:57 pm

For a person to indulge in sensual pleasures without sensual passion, without sensual perception, without sensual thinking: That isn't possible.
Indulge does not mean "experience". Arahant can experience sensual pleasures. But he won't look for them.

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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:26 am

I'm not sure where to turn with this. I don't have a teacher and I'm doing this through books, online resources and diligent practice. I wondered if you could shed some light on this...

On Tuesday I had a funneling sensation in meditation where it seemed like a part of me was draining away. My heart was thumping through my chest. My breathing was very heavy. My mind said I was going to die. I decided there and then that if this is what it takes then so be it, I will die. I don't know how long it went on for but I came through into a peace. I opened my eyes, looked at my Buddha statue and laughed.

Something is different but I need more time to discern what. Insight has changed, it has more depth; women (everyone really) seem to be just flesh and bones including myself but I'm getting tired of this insight. Sense desire may have reduced but I need more time to observe this. There is still suffering.

Is this experience something you are familiar with?

Greatest kindness.

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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:32 am

...anyone?

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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:47 am

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:32 am
...anyone?
I think this report is difficult for people to comment on, because of the difficulties involved in communicating online, especially regarding subjective experiences. The best I can say is that powerful and apparently meaningful experiences do occur for many people during meditation. They are quite common, although they differ because our individual circumstances and kamma are all different.

I wouldn't dwell too much upon the actual experience itself. If the insights you appear to have gained are useful ones which make you happier, and more dispassionate, then count your blessings and continue with the practice. Don't expect more of the same, but just continue with the expectation that good mental qualities are worth pursuing and dwelling on. If, however, you feelings are worse or less useful, then try to develop something within the practice which makes you more confident.

It might help people to comment if you say a bit more about the type of practice you are doing. If you can get some face-to-face time with a good teacher, then that would almost certainly be beneficial. If not, then don't practice intensively without monitoring carefully how it affects you, and whether you are going in the right direction. Keep going, keep alert and confident, and have compassion for yourself.

NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:16 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:47 am
NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:32 am
...anyone?
I think this report is difficult for people to comment on, because of the difficulties involved in communicating online, especially regarding subjective experiences. The best I can say is that powerful and apparently meaningful experiences do occur for many people during meditation. They are quite common, although they differ because our individual circumstances and kamma are all different.

I wouldn't dwell too much upon the actual experience itself. If the insights you appear to have gained are useful ones which make you happier, and more dispassionate, then count your blessings and continue with the practice. Don't expect more of the same, but just continue with the expectation that good mental qualities are worth pursuing and dwelling on. If, however, you feelings are worse or less useful, then try to develop something within the practice which makes you more confident.

It might help people to comment if you say a bit more about the type of practice you are doing. If you can get some face-to-face time with a good teacher, then that would almost certainly be beneficial. If not, then don't practice intensively without monitoring carefully how it affects you, and whether you are going in the right direction. Keep going, keep alert and confident, and have compassion for yourself.
I see. Thank you for your reply. This has been the fourth major shift in the space of one year so something quite interesting is happening. The insights are very useful, very big and life-changing. They've been happening for a year also and getting deeper.

I practice 70 minutes per day meditation - my meditation has changed over the past year from mindfulness of breathing to meditating on nothing. It seems to have evolved into this. This means I have no object anymore, there is just mind and focus. Throughout the day I practice Satipatthana.

Yes, I am very happy. Many of my problematic thought processes had fallen away in April this year when I couldn't find a reference for who I was.

NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:40 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:47 am
NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:32 am
...anyone?
Keep going, keep alert and confident, and have compassion for yourself.
Yes, there is still suffering so I'll keep practicing.

justindesilva
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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by justindesilva » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:54 pm

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:26 am
I'm not sure where to turn with this. I don't have a teacher and I'm doing this through books, online resources and diligent practice. I wondered if you could shed some light on this...

On Tuesday I had a funneling sensation in meditation where it seemed like a part of me was draining away. My heart was thumping through my chest. My breathing was very heavy. My mind said I was going to die. I decided there and then that if this is what it takes then so be it, I will die. I don't know how long it went on for but I came through into a peace. I opened my eyes, looked at my Buddha statue and laughed.

Something is different but I need more time to discern what. Insight has changed, it has more depth; women (everyone really) seem to be just flesh and bones including myself but I'm getting tired of this insight. Sense desire may have reduced but I need more time to observe this. There is still suffering.

Is this experience something you are familiar with?

Greatest kindness.
Quite recently the baby daughter of a friend of mine received a rubber skinned toy puppy , very much like living. After playing with it , a few days, the rubber skin got pierced with a needle, and the puppy no more lively looked only a skin. The baby who owned this toy puppy behaved without eating or drinking as if she lost a living
puppy. The father then who mended the pricked point pumped air and made the toy lively. The baby got back to its playful moods , eating and drinking.
This was an eye opener to us to undertand that what played with the little baby is the senses of the baby only.

NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:05 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:54 pm

Quite recently the baby daughter of a friend of mine received a rubber skinned toy puppy , very much like living. After playing with it , a few days, the rubber skin got pierced with a needle, and the puppy no more lively looked only a skin. The baby who owned this toy puppy behaved without eating or drinking as if she lost a living
puppy. The father then who mended the pricked point pumped air and made the toy lively. The baby got back to its playful moods , eating and drinking.
This was an eye opener to us to undertand that what played with the little baby is the senses of the baby only.
Yes, I see this. Also see the 12 Nidanas and how 'becoming' works and also the high immaterial worlds and the lower hell realms. It's quite fascinating - mind blowing even but I need to maintain some equanimity around this new insight.

justindesilva
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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by justindesilva » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:37 pm

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:05 pm
justindesilva wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:54 pm

Quite recently the baby daughter of a friend of mine received a rubber skinned toy puppy , very much like living. After playing with it , a few days, the rubber skin got pierced with a needle, and the puppy no more lively looked only a skin. The baby who owned this toy puppy behaved without eating or drinking as if she lost a living
puppy. The father then who mended the pricked point pumped air and made the toy lively. The baby got back to its playful moods , eating and drinking.
This was an eye opener to us to undertand that what played with the little baby is the senses of the baby only.
Yes, I see this. Also see the 12 Nidanas and how 'becoming' works and also the high immaterial worlds and the lower hell realms. It's quite fascinating - mind blowing even but I need to maintain some equanimity around this new insight.
Once we understand paticca samuppada we can realise that what is responsible for our dukka , vedana, or feelings is our own perceptions( salayatana). Trying to make our feelings pleasurable is the main cause of dukka or misery. The answer to control the desire (tanha) for pleasure is only arya ashtanga marga ( noble eight fold path) path and there is no other way to maintain the equanimity desired by a follower.

NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:51 am

justindesilva wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:37 pm
Once we understand paticca samuppada we can realise that what is responsible for our dukka , vedana, or feelings is our own perceptions( salayatana). Trying to make our feelings pleasurable is the main cause of dukka or misery. The answer to control the desire (tanha) for pleasure is only arya ashtanga marga ( noble eight fold path) path and there is no other way to maintain the equanimity desired by a follower.
Thanks for this. Having very carefully observed myself, I can see a marked decrease in sense desire although this is not conclusive given it has only been two weeks since the last major shift described above. What I did receive is knowledge that rebirth had ended. Now, this is also is not conclusive as I still see conceit in me so how can one have knowledge that rebirth has ended but still be suffering. I went through the Pali for some answers and came across a person called an Anagami who has no more rebirths at least with six-sense doors.

Since seeing through self-identity in April my practice has switched to work on the aggregates and the sense-spheres. My focus now switches to the 12 nidanas. Name and form are critical here but moreso name or concept. From what I have learned thus far, if I choose to adopt a given name like Anagami as being my identity this would become a huge hindrance, surely.

justindesilva
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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by justindesilva » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:04 pm

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:51 am
justindesilva wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:37 pm
Onc.........
Thanks for this. Having very carefully observed myself, I can see a marked decrease in sense desire although this is not conclusive given it has only been two weeks since the last major shift described above. What I did receive is knowledge that rebirth had ended. Now, this is also is not conclusive as I still see conceit in me so how can one have knowledge that rebirth has ended but still be suffering. I went through the Pali for some answers and came across a person called an Anagami who has no more rebirths at least with six-sense doors.

Since seeing through self-identity in April my practice has switched to work on the aggregates and the sense-spheres. My focus now switches to the 12 nidanas. Name and form are critical here but moreso name or concept. From what I have learned thus far, if I choose to adopt a given name like Anagami as being my identity this would become a huge hindrance, surely.
Though I had no intention to continue in this post, something compels me. And that is " that the knowledge that rebirth has ended". Rebirth at times seem to give a wrong indication of the fact that we beings are a continuation in samsara.

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