Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
James Tan
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Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:37 am

Hi members ,

If ignorance is abandoned at the end when attaining arahatship , this means a sotapanna still have ignorant . Thus, the sotapanna will have Wrong View per Sn45.1. Therefore , a sotapanna do not have True Knowledge .

In light of this , ignorance abandoned at the end ie at attaining arahant stage is mistaken .
The Actuality is the ignorance should be abandoned in the beginning and IN LINE with the Cessation of the dependent origination orders .



“Bhikkhus, ignorance is the forerunner in the entry upon unwholesome states, with shamelessness and fearlessness of wrongdoing following along. For an unwise person immersed in ignorance, wrong view springs up.

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.1/en/bodhi



“Bhikkhu, when a bhikkhu knows and sees the eye as impermanent, ignorance is abandoned by him and true knowledge arises. When he knows and sees forms as impermanent … When he knows and sees as impermanent whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … ignorance is abandoned by him and true knowledge arises.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.79/en/bodhi
:reading:

SarathW
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:41 am

To discuss this you have to define what ignorance means.
It is important to remember that path is gradual so the ignorance fades away gradually too.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:01 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:41 am
To discuss this you have to define what ignorance means.
It is important to remember that path is gradual so the ignorance fades away gradually too.
I am not sure if there's other meaning other than as stated below . Maybe you can provide other ?


https://suttacentral.net/sn56.17/en/bodhi

“Bhikkhu, not knowing suffering, not knowing the origin of suffering, not knowing the cessation of suffering, not knowing the way leading to the cessation of suffering: this is called ignorance, bhikkhu, and it is in this way that one is immersed in ignorance.
:reading:

Dinsdale
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:22 am

James Tan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:37 am
The Actuality is the ignorance should be abandoned in the beginning and IN LINE with the Cessation of the dependent origination orders .
Though it appears that DO only ceases when ignorance has fully ceased.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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justindesilva
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:24 am

Ignorance is existence with a defiled mind described as loba dosa moha. Lord budda explained the path to remove these defiled mind as arya ashtanga marga.
In walking the path of arya adhtanga marga or noble eightfold path skilfully one reaches the states of sotapanna sakadagami anagami and arhat to reach nirvana. As such ignorance is a factor freed in stages.

Dinsdale
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:26 am

James Tan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:01 am
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.17/en/bodhi

“Bhikkhu, not knowing suffering, not knowing the origin of suffering, not knowing the cessation of suffering, not knowing the way leading to the cessation of suffering: this is called ignorance, bhikkhu, and it is in this way that one is immersed in ignorance.
This is the opposite of Right View, so it seems that Right View progressively displaces ignorance:

"And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!

santa100
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by santa100 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:12 pm

James Tan wrote:If ignorance is abandoned at the end when attaining arahatship , this means a sotapanna still have ignorant . Thus, the sotapanna will have Wrong View per Sn45.1. Therefore , a sotapanna do not have True Knowledge .
Notice SN 45.1 says: "For an unwise person immersed in ignorance, wrong view springs up.". While Sotapannas still have some ignorance left to be abandoned, they're definitely not "immersed in ignorance" like regular worldlings. Hence there's no support from SN 45.1 to conclude that Sotapannas cannot have Right View.

dharmacorps
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by dharmacorps » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:23 pm

Thanissaro Bhikkhu I believe has said that ignorance in Buddhism isn't just not having access to accurate information, it is not understanding properly the right information. In that way, one could say even though one has heard the dhamma, one doesn't truly understand it fully, correctly, until ignorance is uprooted. That doesn't mean the other people with ariya attainments don't have progressively less ignorance.

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Zom
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by Zom » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:58 pm

If ignorance is abandoned at the end when attaining arahatship , this means a sotapanna still have ignorant . Thus, the sotapanna will have Wrong View per Sn45.1. Therefore , a sotapanna do not have True Knowledge .
Avijja (ignorance) is one thing, and Miccha Ditthi (including Sakkaya-Ditthi) which are Wrong Views is another thing. Avijja is the 10th samsaric fetter, while Wrong Views is 1st samsaric fetter. Stream winner destroys 1, 2, 3rd fetters, but 4-10th fetters are still there in him. The reason is, obviously, that Views is much more superficial thing than Ignorance, which is "the root of it all" .)

SarathW
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:28 pm

:goodpost: Zom
Then we have to stablish what is meant by ignorance in the OP.
Is it Avijja or the wrong view?
What is Avijja and what is wrong view?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:46 am

santa100 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:12 pm
James Tan wrote:If ignorance is abandoned at the end when attaining arahatship , this means a sotapanna still have ignorant . Thus, the sotapanna will have Wrong View per Sn45.1. Therefore , a sotapanna do not have True Knowledge .
Notice SN 45.1 says: "For an unwise person immersed in ignorance, wrong view springs up.". While Sotapannas still have some ignorance left to be abandoned, they're definitely not "immersed in ignorance" like regular worldlings. Hence there's no support from SN 45.1 to conclude that Sotapannas cannot have Right View.
In which text described sotapanna still have some ignorance ?
:reading:

James Tan
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:06 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:23 pm
Thanissaro Bhikkhu I believe has said that ignorance in Buddhism isn't just not having access to accurate information, it is not understanding properly the right information. In that way, one could say even though one has heard the dhamma, one doesn't truly understand it fully, correctly, until ignorance is uprooted. That doesn't mean the other people with ariya attainments don't have progressively less ignorance.
Ignorance is not understanding the Dukkha with regards to its arising & passing away , the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to the six bases for contact ie the five aggregates . Thus a sotapanna would be already abandoned the ignorance , or else s/he does not understand the four noble truths .
Only the non ariya defile worldling has ignorance .
:reading:

Dinsdale
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:37 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:23 pm
Thanissaro Bhikkhu I believe has said that ignorance in Buddhism isn't just not having access to accurate information...
The Vipallasa Sutta comes to mind.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!

santa100
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by santa100 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:42 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:06 am
Ignorance is not understanding the Dukkha with regards to its arising & passing away , the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to the six bases for contact ie the five aggregates . Thus a sotapanna would be already abandoned the ignorance , or else s/he does not understand the four noble truths .
Only the non ariya defile worldling has ignorance .
A Sotapanna's obviously abandoned ignorance to a large extent, but not 100%. Otherwise s/he wouldn't have to come back at most 7 rebirths.

James Tan
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:01 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:42 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:06 am
Ignorance is not understanding the Dukkha with regards to its arising & passing away , the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to the six bases for contact ie the five aggregates . Thus a sotapanna would be already abandoned the ignorance , or else s/he does not understand the four noble truths .
Only the non ariya defile worldling has ignorance .
A Sotapanna's obviously abandoned ignorance to a large extent, but not 100%. Otherwise s/he wouldn't have to come back at most 7 rebirths.
I would say a sotapanna come back 7 times because they still have certain degree of greed and hatred but not ignorance . Ignorance is a view , is a veil of darkness .
:reading:

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