Effluents and fetters?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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auto
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Effluents and fetters?

Post by auto »

Does effluents and fetters mean same thing,
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
ending of effluents can be also said ending of fetters?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Effluents and fetters?

Post by Sam Vara »

They are certainly presented differently. Here are the fetters:
“Mendicants, there are ten fetters. What ten? The five lower fetters and the five higher fetters. What are the five lower fetters? Identity view, doubt, misapprehension of precepts and observances, sensual desire, and ill will. These are the five lower fetters.

What are the five higher fetters? Desire for rebirth in the realm of luminous form, desire for rebirth in the formless realm, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. These are the ten fetters.”
https://suttacentral.net/an10.13/en/sujato

and here are the effluents, or asava:
āsava:
Mental effluent, pollutant, or fermentation. Four qualities — sensuality, views, becoming, and ignorance — that "flow out" of the mind and create the flood of the round of death and rebirth.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html

and in Sutta form:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Obviously, the metaphor used here is different: one set construes our problem as being bound or hindered, whereas the other set talks in terms of something "flowing out" from us, or (according to a different translation of asava) as flowing in. But I think that freeing oneself from the fetters, and stopping the outflows, both constitute liberation in the fullest term. Having got rid of them, there is no more to be done. So it seems to me quite plausible that both sets are different approaches to the same task of liberation. Two ways of dealing with the same predicament. Maybe the different teachings were intended for different people, or can be selected and worked with according to taste. See
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Asava

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)
auto
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Re: Effluents and fetters?

Post by auto »

Thanks SV, its possible it is different presentations for different people while the goal is same

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Run-of-the-mill person,
"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.
"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it as though joined with it.
In case of Nobel disciple,
"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.
"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it.
Sensual pleasure is a fetter. If you feel pain then there is sensual pleasure. Likely there are even persons to whom the senual pleasure during a physical pain is not noticed.

Run of the mill person discerns sensual pleasure when there is physical pain. It seem there are people who doesn't discern pleasure when in pain and there are a lot of them, so many that i don't know anyone who is run of the mill or even considers that during pain is sensual pleasure.
--
It reminds me a cosmology where who dabble with severe ascetism(immortals) with special medicines or diets are put separate or lower than human.
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