Hi all,
There is no doubt that the most acceptable birth control from Buddhism perspective is the one that doesn't prevent the implantation of fertilized egg in uterus. "Contraception" that prevents implantation of fertilized egg in the uterus can be considered early abortion from Buddhism perspective, therefore it's the violation of the first precept.
Birth control pill prevents conception but some of them can also act as abortifacient, in case the prevention is failed. When someone uses birth control before they have intercourse, their intention is to prevent conception and intention is karma. If Buddhists do not have intention to kill then why do they choose not to accept all birth control methods?
Birth control and Buddhism
- salayatananirodha
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Re: Birth control and Buddhism
Yes, it is an offense entailing expulsion for a monk to help procure birth control. This shows that it is a serious offense, with reason not without
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- Dhammanando
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Re: Birth control and Buddhism
Perhaps because the Buddha taught that one should "see danger in the slightest fault". If a birth control pill might act as an abortifacient, then in taking it one might end up killing a human being.D1W1 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:48 pm Birth control pill prevents conception but some of them can also act as abortifacient, in case the prevention is failed. When someone uses birth control before they have intercourse, their intention is to prevent conception and intention is karma. If Buddhists do not have intention to kill then why do they choose not to accept all birth control methods?
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: Birth control and Buddhism
I also wonder if the intention factors in here, because do most women know that a birth control pill will cause the demise of a embryo if one does begin to develop? I am no so sure. They probably would understand the pill prevents you from getting pregnant to begin with (also true). If their intention was not to kill, then is it breaking the precept?
Sorry if I am muddying the waters here. I know we had the same discussion on here some time ago about whether sperm was "alive" and if masturbation amounted to killing (!). I don't want to resurrect that bizarre discussion!
Sorry if I am muddying the waters here. I know we had the same discussion on here some time ago about whether sperm was "alive" and if masturbation amounted to killing (!). I don't want to resurrect that bizarre discussion!
- salayatananirodha
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Re: Birth control and Buddhism
There is not conception until the mother and father have coitus. And intention is kamma, not otherwise.
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Re: Birth control and Buddhism
Is it really?salayatananirodha wrote: ↑Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:37 pm Yes, it is an offense entailing expulsion for a monk to help procure birth control. This shows that it is a serious offense, with reason not without
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama
"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Re: Birth control and Buddhism
I think the offence is for a monk who facilitates an abortion, not birth control (I don't remember seeing this term mentioned in the Vinaya).TRobinson465 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:28 amIs it really?salayatananirodha wrote: ↑Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:37 pm Yes, it is an offense entailing expulsion for a monk to help procure birth control. This shows that it is a serious offense, with reason not without
aniccā vata saṇkhārā - tesaṁ vūpasamo sukho
Re: Birth control and Buddhism
There is a nice blog post detailing several case studies from the Suttas, where a monk performed an abortion.
https://essenceofbuddhism.wordpress.com ... -expelled/
From those case studies it is clear, that we are not talking about birth control as we understand it, but the women were recognizable pregnant and there was a defined fetus that had to be killed.
As always, not just the act, but also the intention/motivation behind it must be considered; a monk purely advising how to best abort a living fetus was also expulsed, even though he did nothing further to actively assist the mother in carrying out her abortion.
In cases, where an abortion was tried by a monk but was unsuccessful and both baby and mother survived, there was no expulsion, it was only a misdemeanor.
Finally, the last case study in the blog post, Case 9, specifically talks about a monk providing a contraceptive. This was deemed an offense of Wrong Conduct by the monk. No expulsion followed.
Instead we have here alone multiple occurrences of abortions, while in other Suttas we hear of (not all that infrequent) rape, murder, theft, etc., all that perpetrated by a community that cannot have been larger than a few thousand people.
While this might sadden some, to me it is actually a beacon of light, showing me that while human nature is beastly, full of strong delusions and is very difficult to change, we in our modern times with all those perceived weaknesses really cannot be so different to these people from the past, who were able to become truly enlightened by the Dhamma.
https://essenceofbuddhism.wordpress.com ... -expelled/
From those case studies it is clear, that we are not talking about birth control as we understand it, but the women were recognizable pregnant and there was a defined fetus that had to be killed.
As always, not just the act, but also the intention/motivation behind it must be considered; a monk purely advising how to best abort a living fetus was also expulsed, even though he did nothing further to actively assist the mother in carrying out her abortion.
In cases, where an abortion was tried by a monk but was unsuccessful and both baby and mother survived, there was no expulsion, it was only a misdemeanor.
Finally, the last case study in the blog post, Case 9, specifically talks about a monk providing a contraceptive. This was deemed an offense of Wrong Conduct by the monk. No expulsion followed.
In a second train of thought, I am -- as so often -- completely amazed how far the brotherhood of monks already dared to transgress at the time of the Buddha. We have (or I had) this picture in mind, where the Buddha sits surrounded by Stream Enterers, peacefully listening to his Dhamma talks.On one occasion a fertile woman said to a monk who was supported by her family, “Venerable, please find me some medicine to help me not get pregnant.” “All right,” he said … “There’s no offense entailing expulsion, but there’s an offense of wrong conduct.”
Instead we have here alone multiple occurrences of abortions, while in other Suttas we hear of (not all that infrequent) rape, murder, theft, etc., all that perpetrated by a community that cannot have been larger than a few thousand people.
While this might sadden some, to me it is actually a beacon of light, showing me that while human nature is beastly, full of strong delusions and is very difficult to change, we in our modern times with all those perceived weaknesses really cannot be so different to these people from the past, who were able to become truly enlightened by the Dhamma.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
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Re: Birth control and Buddhism
Oh okay. That makes more sense.AgarikaJ wrote: ↑Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:36 pm There is a nice blog post detailing several case studies from the Suttas, where a monk performed an abortion.
https://essenceofbuddhism.wordpress.com ... -expelled/
From those case studies it is clear, that we are not talking about birth control as we understand it, but the women were recognizable pregnant and there was a defined fetus that had to be killed.
As always, not just the act, but also the intention/motivation behind it must be considered; a monk purely advising how to best abort a living fetus was also expulsed, even though he did nothing further to actively assist the mother in carrying out her abortion.
In cases, where an abortion was tried by a monk but was unsuccessful and both baby and mother survived, there was no expulsion, it was only a misdemeanor.
Finally, the last case study in the blog post, Case 9, specifically talks about a monk providing a contraceptive. This was deemed an offense of Wrong Conduct by the monk. No expulsion followed.
In a second train of thought, I am -- as so often -- completely amazed how far the brotherhood of monks already dared to transgress at the time of the Buddha. We have (or I had) this picture in mind, where the Buddha sits surrounded by Stream Enterers, peacefully listening to his Dhamma talks.On one occasion a fertile woman said to a monk who was supported by her family, “Venerable, please find me some medicine to help me not get pregnant.” “All right,” he said … “There’s no offense entailing expulsion, but there’s an offense of wrong conduct.”
Instead we have here alone multiple occurrences of abortions, while in other Suttas we hear of (not all that infrequent) rape, murder, theft, etc., all that perpetrated by a community that cannot have been larger than a few thousand people.
While this might sadden some, to me it is actually a beacon of light, showing me that while human nature is beastly, full of strong delusions and is very difficult to change, we in our modern times with all those perceived weaknesses really cannot be so different to these people from the past, who were able to become truly enlightened by the Dhamma.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama
"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Birth control and Buddhism
To what ever extents we discuss birth control , no buddhist couple will refrain from controlling births as it has become a social need to cut down on population.
Yet we can discuss on methods of not going in to abortions. Even abortions ( as heard on a sermon) can be a karmic effect of the foetus to be born.
Lord budda probably did not advise exclusively on birth control but emphasised heavily on illcit sex. Parabhava sutta and sigalovada sutta explain the result of wrong sex as going around with others wives and engaging in sex with women who are being under the observance of adults and also with women unwillingly.
The governments openly encourage birth control.
Yet we can discuss on methods of not going in to abortions. Even abortions ( as heard on a sermon) can be a karmic effect of the foetus to be born.
Lord budda probably did not advise exclusively on birth control but emphasised heavily on illcit sex. Parabhava sutta and sigalovada sutta explain the result of wrong sex as going around with others wives and engaging in sex with women who are being under the observance of adults and also with women unwillingly.
The governments openly encourage birth control.
- salayatananirodha
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Re: Birth control and Buddhism
TRobinson465 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:28 amIs it really?salayatananirodha wrote: ↑Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:37 pm Yes, it is an offense entailing expulsion for a monk to help procure birth control. This shows that it is a serious offense, with reason not without
oh, whoopsAgarikaJ wrote: ↑Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:36 pm There is a nice blog post detailing several case studies from the Suttas, where a monk performed an abortion.
https://essenceofbuddhism.wordpress.com ... -expelled/
From those case studies it is clear, that we are not talking about birth control as we understand it, but the women were recognizable pregnant and there was a defined fetus that had to be killed.
As always, not just the act, but also the intention/motivation behind it must be considered; a monk purely advising how to best abort a living fetus was also expulsed, even though he did nothing further to actively assist the mother in carrying out her abortion.
In cases, where an abortion was tried by a monk but was unsuccessful and both baby and mother survived, there was no expulsion, it was only a misdemeanor.
Finally, the last case study in the blog post, Case 9, specifically talks about a monk providing a contraceptive. This was deemed an offense of Wrong Conduct by the monk. No expulsion followed.
In a second train of thought, I am -- as so often -- completely amazed how far the brotherhood of monks already dared to transgress at the time of the Buddha. We have (or I had) this picture in mind, where the Buddha sits surrounded by Stream Enterers, peacefully listening to his Dhamma talks.On one occasion a fertile woman said to a monk who was supported by her family, “Venerable, please find me some medicine to help me not get pregnant.” “All right,” he said … “There’s no offense entailing expulsion, but there’s an offense of wrong conduct.”
Instead we have here alone multiple occurrences of abortions, while in other Suttas we hear of (not all that infrequent) rape, murder, theft, etc., all that perpetrated by a community that cannot have been larger than a few thousand people.
While this might sadden some, to me it is actually a beacon of light, showing me that while human nature is beastly, full of strong delusions and is very difficult to change, we in our modern times with all those perceived weaknesses really cannot be so different to these people from the past, who were able to become truly enlightened by the Dhamma.
well, i was wrong
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
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Re: Birth control and Buddhism
justindesilva wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:04 am To what ever extents we discuss birth control , no buddhist couple will refrain from controlling births as it has become a social need to cut down on population.
Yet we can discuss on methods of not going in to abortions. Even abortions ( as heard on a sermon) can be a karmic effect of the foetus to be born.
Lord budda probably did not advise exclusively on birth control but emphasised heavily on illcit sex. Parabhava sutta and sigalovada sutta explain the result of wrong sex as going around with others wives and engaging in sex with women who are being under the observance of adults and also with women unwillingly.
The governments openly encourage birth control.
Re: Birth control and Buddhism
Dhammanando wrote: ↑Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:44 pmPerhaps because the Buddha taught that one should "see danger in the slightest fault". If a birth control pill might act as an abortifacient, then in taking it one might end up killing a human being.D1W1 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:48 pm Birth control pill prevents conception but some of them can also act as abortifacient, in case the prevention is failed. When someone uses birth control before they have intercourse, their intention is to prevent conception and intention is karma. If Buddhists do not have intention to kill then why do they choose not to accept all birth control methods?
It's not to abort the developing of fertilized egg because nothing to abort. AFAIK, birth control pills work in three ways, stopping sperm and egg from meeting, stopping the ovulation and they thin the inner lining of the uterus in case the first and second method fail. Other form of birth control such as IUD makes sperm difficult to reach and fertilized the egg. if it's fertilized, the egg will stop from developing because the uterus is inhospitable. We only know pregnancy does not happen but we can't really tell if the abortion is happening in the body or not. If the intention to prevent conception is danger and the intention to kill is also danger, then there is no difference. There is no good or neutral kamma, the existence of kamma or intention, which is the source of suffering and happiness is not important.
Re: Birth control and Buddhism
Well, I never suspected that The Pill would cause post-fertilization-abortions. I just read this from two web pages, one that was pro-life and one that was pro-abortion.
Luckily, my abortion post was right on the money. No need to edit it. I was a little concerned. However, if one has no intention, one is never guilty of a defeat offense. Below is my post on abortion which also explains the rule.
https://americanmonk.org/buddhism-and-abortion/
Does anyone know the monk who says that if you poke an Embryo and it does not move or shake then there is no consciousness? (most monks know who it is ). However, because this monk does not believe there is life, he is not guilty. You must perceive life. I once asked Ven Pa-Auk Sayadawgyi about this. He said,
Luckily, my abortion post was right on the money. No need to edit it. I was a little concerned. However, if one has no intention, one is never guilty of a defeat offense. Below is my post on abortion which also explains the rule.
https://americanmonk.org/buddhism-and-abortion/
Does anyone know the monk who says that if you poke an Embryo and it does not move or shake then there is no consciousness? (most monks know who it is ). However, because this monk does not believe there is life, he is not guilty. You must perceive life. I once asked Ven Pa-Auk Sayadawgyi about this. He said,
Vinaya is one thing and kamma is another. While he is not guilty of defeat, he is not exempt from kamma by teaching ignorant and wrong beliefs, based on wrong view.
- retrofuturist
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Re: Birth control and Buddhism
Greetings,
Please do your best to keep this topic specific to birth control in the context of Theravada Buddhism.
Comments such as the following are veering away from practice of Theravada Buddhism and into politics...
Metta,
Paul.
Please do your best to keep this topic specific to birth control in the context of Theravada Buddhism.
Comments such as the following are veering away from practice of Theravada Buddhism and into politics...
To what ever extents we discuss birth control , no buddhist couple will refrain from controlling births as it has become a social need to cut down on population.
To the extent you want to discuss the crossover between birth control, Buddhism and politics, that would be best done at Dhamma Wheel Engaged.The governments openly encourage birth control.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."