In the "standard" version of paticcasamupadda/dependent origination, it is said: "With ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, name-and-form" (e.g. SN 12.1: https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn12.1 ). Ignorance results in volitional formations, volitional formations results in consciousness, consciousness results in name-and-form (and so on).
Yet in SN 12.65 https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn12.65, this is claimed instead: "name-and-form has consciousness as its condition ... consciousness has name-and-form as its condition ... Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘This consciousness turns back; it does not go further than name-and-form.'" If I'm reading this right, it's saying that consciousness arises simultaneously with name-and-form, and has no other prior conditions (e.g. volitional formations are not a condition for consciousness here).
Am I understanding this correctly? How are these two reconciled?
Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
is it that if name and form ceases, formations cease
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
It's because consciousness and name-form have a mutual dependency, which SN 12.67 gives further explanation using the simile of two sheaves of reeds leaning against each other. As far as the part where "consciousness turning back", it doesn't mean that it has no other prior conditions. Ven. Bodhi's note citing Comy.'s explanation to clarify the meaning of "turning back":cookiemonster wrote:Yet in SN 12.65...
This consciousness turns back (paccudāvattati kho idaṃ viññāṇāṃ). Spk: What is the consciousness that turns back here? The rebirth-consciousness and the insight-consciousness. Rebirth-consciousness turns back from its condition, insight-consciousness from its object. Neither overcomes name-and-form, goes further than name-and-form.
Spk-pṭ: From its condition: Rebirth-consciousness turns back from volitional formations—the special cause for consciousness—which has not been mentioned; it does not turn back from all conditions, as name-and-form is stated as the condition for consciousness. From its object: from ignorance and volitional formations as object, or from the past existence as object.
Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
They still are a cause, because volitional formations are included in name-and-form .)If I'm reading this right, it's saying that consciousness arises simultaneously with name-and-form, and has no other prior conditions (e.g. volitional formations are not a condition for consciousness here).
Sankhara-vinnyana link explains how vinnyana is generated. And vinnyana-nameform link shows that these two are interdependent.
Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
My opinion.
SN 12.65 says: "At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta...". Thus here Gotama was still searching and did not have complete realisation. Thus when he traced back to nama-rupa and then consciousness, because consciousness can only arise when it settles on an object (SN 22.53), the object mentioned was nama-rupa. But later, Gotama saw more clearly and realised there is two levels of "nama-rupa", which are gross and subtle. Gross he called 'nama-rupa' and subtle he called 'sankhara'.
Gross nama-rupa is feeling, perception, intention, (internal) contact, attention and form comprised of earth, wind, fire and water (as defined in sutta). Subtle nama-rupa is kaya-sankhara (non-volitional breathing), vaci-sankhara (non-volitional initial and sustained thinking) and citta-sankhara (non-volitional perception and feeling) arising from ignorance/asava, as defined in sutta. Gross and subtle nama-rupa comprise mostly of the same constituents yet arise at different times. When D.O. is realised by devoted faithful meditation, the mind will understand. Thanissaro could guide you on pages 3 to 6 in Shape of Suffering but I doubt your mind is not empty of clinging to views so it can follow. I think being stuck on the translation "volitional formations" means it can't be followed.
I suggest to read MN 19; about two kinds of thought. The defiled thoughts arising from ignorance in MN 19 are 'sankhara'. And the mind that responds to (or otherwise gets lost in & enslaved to) these defiled thoughts is 'nama'. Please work on understanding how MN 19 operates in your meditation until the two levels of mind are seen clearly. The gross mind ('nama') feels, perceives, contacts, intends and attends to the subtle mind (sankhara), which itself is comprised of feelings, perceptions, thoughts, etc. As instructed in MN 23: "delve with the knife of wisdom" until understanding with conviction arises.
Best wishes
‘Take up the sword and dig, O sage!’
‘abhikkhaṇa, sumedha, satthaṃ ādāyā’ti.
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
FYI ,cookiemonster wrote: ↑Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:18 am
: ‘This consciousness turns back; it does not go further than name-and-form.'"
The consciousness depending on the sense media and sense objects , nothing further than this perimeter .
Therefore , if you want to examine WHERE the consciousness CAME from , certainly you could not find something Further than sense media and sense objects . Or Outside of these scope .
Not sure if you will get my message .
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
I think the standard explanation on this point is that in this case Buddha discerned DO only for the present life. Ignorance and formations belong to the previous one.cookiemonster wrote: ↑Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:18 amIf I'm reading this right, it's saying that consciousness arises simultaneously with name-and-form, and has no other prior conditions (e.g. volitional formations are not a condition for consciousness here).
Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
Can you provide evidence from the Buddha's words of the above? If ignorance belong to a past life, who can ignorance be ended? Must the mind return to the past to end it?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
The way I understand DO apply in this life itself right at this moment.Volovsky wrote: ↑Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:00 amI think the standard explanation on this point is that in this case Buddha discerned DO only for the present life. Ignorance and formations belong to the previous one.cookiemonster wrote: ↑Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:18 amIf I'm reading this right, it's saying that consciousness arises simultaneously with name-and-form, and has no other prior conditions (e.g. volitional formations are not a condition for consciousness here).
Some people try to split DO into three life model but it does not make any sense to me.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31677&p=467944&hilit=
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
In Mahānidāna sutta Buddha said:
So, conception happens on the stage of consciousness in DO. What is before is the previous life.‘I have said: “Consciousness conditions mind-and-body.”. If consciousness were not to come into the mother׳s womb, would mind-and-body develop there?’ ‘No, Lord.’
The ignorance in the past life conditioned present life, this cannot be changed anymore. But the present life still has ignorance, which will or will not condition future life. We still can end this ignorance and prevent future nāma-rūpa.If ignorance belong to a past life, who can ignorance be ended? Must the mind return to the past to end it?
BTW, Have you read this post of mine viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32780&start=15#p487065
Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
The Mahānidāna sutta contains so many contradictions and idiosyncrasies that there appears no evidence the Buddha even spoke it.
The Mahānidāna sutta does not appear to say the above. The Mahānidāna sutta appears to use the literal Brahmanistic term "name-form" or "naming-form" (rather than how nama-rupa is used in SN 12.2 as "mind-and-body"). I suggest to compare the different and contradictory definitions of nama-rupa in The Mahānidāna sutta and SN 12.2. Mahānidāna sutta defines nama-rupa as naming forms which appears related to the next teaching of "Delineations of a Self"; as follows:
If the qualities, traits, themes, & indicators by which there is a description of name-group (mental activity) were all absent, would designation-contact with regard to the form-group (the physical properties) be discerned?"
"No, lord."
"If the permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of form-group....
To what extent, Ananda, does one delineate when delineating a self? Either delineating a self possessed of form and finite, one delineates that 'My self is possessed of form...
The above is merely your personal interpretation. Nama-rupa in DN 15 appears literally about "naming-forms" as was previously taught in Brahminism; in which Brahminism provides the example of a father naming his son to explain what nama-rupa means. If the mother's consciousness does not enter into her womb, she cannot know she is pregnant with baby nor name her baby. If the mother's consciousness does not enter into her womb, her mind cannot make delineations of self about her and her baby. If consciousness does not connect with any object, including a baby in a womb, that object (form) cannot be named. Personally, I cannot imagine how you could derive the interpretation you have derived. Nama-rupa in Mahānidāna sutta is obviously about NAMING FORMS and for NAMING FORMS to occur, consciousness must 1st experiences these FORMS. In MN 38 the Buddha says of D.O.
It appears what you wrote does not accord with the teaching above (which is also the Dhamma Refuge).Good, monks. You have been guided by me in this Dhamma which is to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the observant for themselves. For it has been said, 'This Dhamma is to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be by the observant for themselves,' and it was in reference to this that it was said.
MN 38
Its basically the 30 year anniversary of my literally meditating upon D.O. However, its the 10th anniversary of my reading the same old copied unverified opinions on D.O; similar to how the Buddha described a lineage of blind Brahmin teachers. Whatever you wrote appears to not accord with the Dhamma refuge I posted from MN 38.Volovsky wrote: ↑Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:40 am BTW, Have you read this post of mine viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32780&start=15#p487065
In MN 38, about D.O. the Buddha taught the following, which applies to my good self. Whatever you post means nothing to me (and hopefully following this teaching, what I write means nothing to you, unless we agree)
"Knowing thus and seeing thus, would you say, 'The Teacher is our respected mentor. We speak thus out of respect for the Teacher'?"
"No, lord."
"Knowing thus and seeing thus, would you say, 'The Contemplative says this. We speak thus in line with the Contemplative's words'?"
"No, lord."
"Is it the case that you speak simply in line with what you have known, seen, & understood for yourselves?"
"Yes, lord."
MN 38
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
You keep using these cheap discussion tricks and accuse me (not for the first time) that I misinterpret the Buddha, although I only cited the sutta. You don't have a copyright on truth. Therefore keep your personal ideas about me to yourself
Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
Its obvious by the above it is not my good self using cheap discussion tricks.
As I posted, 'nama-rupa' from DN 15 definitely appears to not refer to the mind & body but to naming forms. Allow me to quote again:
If the qualities, traits, themes, & indicators by which there is a description of name-group (mental activity)...
The permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of form-group....
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
I don't think these are mutually exclusive. For example bhava can be seen as both "here and now", and as a cycle of birth and death in the three realms.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications
reconciling these two;
one model both points out a cause and explains consecutive origination of created phenomena whereas the other merely explains the universal origination of created phenomena. Thus the two models start with different points of reference, one assumes the existence of the world to begin with to point out a cause before explaining volitional creation whilst the other merely explains the conditions for origination of the world.
"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
"'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
In short;"Thus, Ananda, from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact.
one model both points out a cause and explains consecutive origination of created phenomena whereas the other merely explains the universal origination of created phenomena. Thus the two models start with different points of reference, one assumes the existence of the world to begin with to point out a cause before explaining volitional creation whilst the other merely explains the conditions for origination of the world.