Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

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santa100
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:07 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:05 am
santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:00 am
Why do you keep advocating all this conspiracy theory nonsense in so many posts? I'll repeat my question:
Now per DO: Avijja conditions Sankhara, then Sankhara conditions Vinnana; now if Vinnana is exclusively of the sense consciousness, then how can Vinnana exists before Nama-Rupa come into the picture?
I provided my opinion on this elsewhere. Refer to my post. Regards :hello:
Well, then of course you're entitled to your own opinion. Regards :hello:

James Tan
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:27 am

DooDoot , santa100 ,

Guys, MN49 has no problem (imo) , the problem is the translation was being corrupted .

Please take note the difference of the translation of MN49 & MA78.

<<Consciousness non-manifesting,
Boundless, luminous all-round
that is not partaken of by the earthness of earth, that is not partaken of by the waterness of water…that is not partaken of by the allness of all.’
>>
MN49

But MN49 and MA78 translation on this part is very much different .

以識無量境界故,無量知、無量見、無量種別,我各各知別,是地知地,水、火、風、神、天、生主,是梵天知梵天。」
CONSCIOUSNESS has many varieties of state , limitless knowing / limitless view / limitless category , i(Buddha) , directly known each of them , known earth as earth , water, fire, wind, god, deva, pajapati , brahma as brahma .

MA78

======================================

There is no consciousness other than
the six type of consciousness .
The sensible explanation would be :
the kamma causes the appearance of a succession new physical body in the womb . Upon break up of the aggregates ie old body ,
the (intermediate) aggregates in refine form will continue to take birth accordingly by merging with the womb .
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:24 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:07 am
Well, then of course you're entitled to your own opinion.

As I posted, the "sankhara" link is made up of mental & physical phenomena also; the same as "nama-rupa". That is why consciousness can arise dependent upon sankhara. My answer logically explained when Gotama traced back D.O. only to consciousness; this occurred when he was not yet the Buddha.

I will repost my answer:
SN 12.65 says: "At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta...". Thus here Gotama was still searching and did not have complete realisation. Thus when he traced back to nama-rupa and then consciousness, because consciousness can only arise when it settles on an object (SN 22.53), the object mentioned was nama-rupa. But later, Gotama saw more clearly and realised there is two levels of "nama-rupa", which are gross and subtle. Gross he called 'nama-rupa' and subtle he called 'sankhara'.

Gross nama-rupa is feeling, perception, intention, (internal) contact, attention and form comprised of earth, wind, fire and water (as defined in sutta). Subtle nama-rupa is kaya-sankhara (non-volitional breathing), vaci-sankhara (non-volitional initial and sustained thinking) and citta-sankhara (non-volitional perception and feeling) arising from ignorance/asava, as defined in sutta. Gross and subtle nama-rupa comprise mostly of the same constituents yet arise at different times.

santa100
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:02 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:24 am
santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:07 am
Well, then of course you're entitled to your own opinion.
Sure. But when I read your opinion I actually read it, comprehend it then refute it. That you can't do with my opinion. :smile:

As I posted, the "sankhara" link is made up of mental & physical phenomena also; the same as "nama-rupa". That is why consciousness can arise dependent upon sankhara. My answer logically explained when Gotama traced back D.O. only to consciousness; this occurred when he was not yet the Buddha.

I will repost my answer:
SN 12.65 says: "At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta...". Thus here Gotama was still searching and did not have complete realisation. Thus when he traced back to nama-rupa and then consciousness, because consciousness can only arise when it settles on an object (SN 22.53), the object mentioned was nama-rupa. But later, Gotama saw more clearly and realised there is two levels of "nama-rupa", which are gross and subtle. Gross he called 'nama-rupa' and subtle he called 'sankhara'.

Gross nama-rupa is feeling, perception, intention, (internal) contact, attention and form comprised of earth, wind, fire and water (as defined in sutta). Subtle nama-rupa is kaya-sankhara (non-volitional breathing), vaci-sankhara (non-volitional initial and sustained thinking) and citta-sankhara (non-volitional perception and feeling) arising from ignorance/asava, as defined in sutta. Gross and subtle nama-rupa comprise mostly of the same constituents yet arise at different times.
Actually it's not just my opinion, my posts always include 3 parts: sutta references, Comy's reference, and personal opinion.

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DooDoot
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:35 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:02 pm
Actually it's not just my opinion, my posts always include 3 parts: sutta references, Comy's reference, and personal opinion.
If commy contradicts sutta then it perverts or imputes itself upon sutta. That is why Buddhists discusss & debate these matters. For example, at least Abhidhamma has "sankhara" as "singular" but sutta has "sankhara" as "plural" in Dependent Origination. This is evidence the commy (which like Abdidhamma purports sankhara is meritorious, unmeritorious, etc) contradicts sutta (because when sankhara is plural, all three sankhara - kaya, vaci & citta - can arise together, at the same time). My view is the same as sutta; that sankhara is plural. But the commy view that sankhara is meritorious, unmeritorious, imperturbable, etc, means all three of these sankhara cannot arise at the same time. The commy like Abhidhamma appears to say sankhara is singular but the sutta says it is plural.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

santa100
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:35 am
If commy contradicts sutta then it perverts or imputes itself upon sutta. That is why Buddhists discusss & debate these matters.
Nothing wrong with discussion/debate. I love debating. But don't forget that more often than not, we already impute our own view upon the suttas and automatically assume that's what the suttas say! Just because Comy's is not always right doesn't mean it's not helpful to lend an ear to get a broader more objective picture.

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DooDoot
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:46 am

santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:45 am
Nothing wrong with discussion/debate. I love debating.
Personally, I have not noticed any debate from you. Debate is listening/reading the other view then directly responding to it. Personally, I only notice you copy & pasting. I debate. I often respond to a post line by line.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

santa100
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:47 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:46 am
santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:45 am
Nothing wrong with discussion/debate. I love debating.
Personally, I have not noticed any debate from you.
Because so far you haven't initiated any good one. Show real debate and real debate will come.
Last edited by santa100 on Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:48 am

santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:47 am
Because so far you haven't initiated any good one.
Exactly. Point proven. :thumbsup:

santa100
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:48 am
santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:47 am
Because so far you haven't initiated any good one.
Exactly. Point proven. :thumbsup:
Any time bro.

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DooDoot
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:52 am

santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:49 am
Any time bro.
Definitely not brothers. :jumping:
"For the Blessed One, O Lord, spoke these words to me: 'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by the appropriate conduct, and having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma.'

DN 16
:focus:

santa100
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:52 am
santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:49 am
Any time bro.
Definitely not brothers. :jumping:
"For the Blessed One, O Lord, spoke these words to me: 'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by the appropriate conduct, and having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma.'

DN 16
Too bad you see it that way. Maybe you should study the highlighted part everytime before you post. :jumping:

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