Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

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cookiemonster
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Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by cookiemonster » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:18 am

In the "standard" version of paticcasamupadda/dependent origination, it is said: "With ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, name-and-form" (e.g. SN 12.1: https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn12.1 ). Ignorance results in volitional formations, volitional formations results in consciousness, consciousness results in name-and-form (and so on).

Yet in SN 12.65 https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn12.65, this is claimed instead: "name-and-form has consciousness as its condition ... consciousness has name-and-form as its condition ... Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘This consciousness turns back; it does not go further than name-and-form.'" If I'm reading this right, it's saying that consciousness arises simultaneously with name-and-form, and has no other prior conditions (e.g. volitional formations are not a condition for consciousness here).

Am I understanding this correctly? How are these two reconciled?

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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by salayatananirodha » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:25 am

is it that if name and form ceases, formations cease
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by santa100 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:33 am

cookiemonster wrote:Yet in SN 12.65...
It's because consciousness and name-form have a mutual dependency, which SN 12.67 gives further explanation using the simile of two sheaves of reeds leaning against each other. As far as the part where "consciousness turning back", it doesn't mean that it has no other prior conditions. Ven. Bodhi's note citing Comy.'s explanation to clarify the meaning of "turning back":
This consciousness turns back (paccudāvattati kho idaṃ viññāṇāṃ). Spk: What is the consciousness that turns back here? The rebirth-consciousness and the insight-consciousness. Rebirth-consciousness turns back from its condition, insight-consciousness from its object. Neither overcomes name-and-form, goes further than name-and-form.
Spk-pṭ: From its condition: Rebirth-consciousness turns back from volitional formations—the special cause for consciousness—which has not been mentioned; it does not turn back from all conditions, as name-and-form is stated as the condition for consciousness. From its object: from ignorance and volitional formations as object, or from the past existence as object.

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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by Zom » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:10 am

If I'm reading this right, it's saying that consciousness arises simultaneously with name-and-form, and has no other prior conditions (e.g. volitional formations are not a condition for consciousness here).
They still are a cause, because volitional formations are included in name-and-form .)

Sankhara-vinnyana link explains how vinnyana is generated. And vinnyana-nameform link shows that these two are interdependent.

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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by DooDoot » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:25 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:18 am
How are these two reconciled?
My opinion.

SN 12.65 says: "At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta...". Thus here Gotama was still searching and did not have complete realisation. Thus when he traced back to nama-rupa and then consciousness, because consciousness can only arise when it settles on an object (SN 22.53), the object mentioned was nama-rupa. But later, Gotama saw more clearly and realised there is two levels of "nama-rupa", which are gross and subtle. Gross he called 'nama-rupa' and subtle he called 'sankhara'.

Gross nama-rupa is feeling, perception, intention, (internal) contact, attention and form comprised of earth, wind, fire and water (as defined in sutta). Subtle nama-rupa is kaya-sankhara (non-volitional breathing), vaci-sankhara (non-volitional initial and sustained thinking) and citta-sankhara (non-volitional perception and feeling) arising from ignorance/asava, as defined in sutta. Gross and subtle nama-rupa comprise mostly of the same constituents yet arise at different times. When D.O. is realised by devoted faithful meditation, the mind will understand. Thanissaro could guide you on pages 3 to 6 in Shape of Suffering but I doubt your mind is not empty of clinging to views so it can follow. I think being stuck on the translation "volitional formations" means it can't be followed.

I suggest to read MN 19; about two kinds of thought. The defiled thoughts arising from ignorance in MN 19 are 'sankhara'. And the mind that responds to (or otherwise gets lost in & enslaved to) these defiled thoughts is 'nama'. Please work on understanding how MN 19 operates in your meditation until the two levels of mind are seen clearly. The gross mind ('nama') feels, perceives, contacts, intends and attends to the subtle mind (sankhara), which itself is comprised of feelings, perceptions, thoughts, etc. As instructed in MN 23: "delve with the knife of wisdom" until understanding with conviction arises.

Best wishes :smile:
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‘abhikkhaṇa, sumedha, satthaṃ ādāyā’ti.

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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by James Tan » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:29 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:18 am


: ‘This consciousness turns back; it does not go further than name-and-form.'"
FYI ,

The consciousness depending on the sense media and sense objects , nothing further than this perimeter .
Therefore , if you want to examine WHERE the consciousness CAME from , certainly you could not find something Further than sense media and sense objects . Or Outside of these scope .

Not sure if you will get my message .
:reading:

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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by Volovsky » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:00 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:18 am
If I'm reading this right, it's saying that consciousness arises simultaneously with name-and-form, and has no other prior conditions (e.g. volitional formations are not a condition for consciousness here).
I think the standard explanation on this point is that in this case Buddha discerned DO only for the present life. Ignorance and formations belong to the previous one.

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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by DooDoot » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:11 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:00 am
Ignorance and formations belong to the previous one.
Can you provide evidence from the Buddha's words of the above? If ignorance belong to a past life, who can ignorance be ended? Must the mind return to the past to end it?
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by SarathW » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:23 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:00 am
cookiemonster wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:18 am
If I'm reading this right, it's saying that consciousness arises simultaneously with name-and-form, and has no other prior conditions (e.g. volitional formations are not a condition for consciousness here).
I think the standard explanation on this point is that in this case Buddha discerned DO only for the present life. Ignorance and formations belong to the previous one.
The way I understand DO apply in this life itself right at this moment.
Some people try to split DO into three life model but it does not make any sense to me.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31677&p=467944&hilit=
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by Volovsky » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:40 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:11 am
Can you provide evidence from the Buddha's words of the above?
In Mahānidāna sutta Buddha said:
‘I have said: “Consciousness conditions mind-and-body.”. If consciousness were not to come into the mother׳s womb, would mind-and-body develop there?’ ‘No, Lord.’
So, conception happens on the stage of consciousness in DO. What is before is the previous life.
If ignorance belong to a past life, who can ignorance be ended? Must the mind return to the past to end it?
The ignorance in the past life conditioned present life, this cannot be changed anymore. But the present life still has ignorance, which will or will not condition future life. We still can end this ignorance and prevent future nāma-rūpa.

BTW, Have you read this post of mine viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32780&start=15#p487065

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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by DooDoot » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:55 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:40 am
In Mahānidāna sutta Buddha said:
The Mahānidāna sutta contains so many contradictions and idiosyncrasies that there appears no evidence the Buddha even spoke it.
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:40 am
‘I have said: “Consciousness conditions mind-and-body.”
The Mahānidāna sutta does not appear to say the above. The Mahānidāna sutta appears to use the literal Brahmanistic term "name-form" or "naming-form" (rather than how nama-rupa is used in SN 12.2 as "mind-and-body"). I suggest to compare the different and contradictory definitions of nama-rupa in The Mahānidāna sutta and SN 12.2. Mahānidāna sutta defines nama-rupa as naming forms which appears related to the next teaching of "Delineations of a Self"; as follows:
If the qualities, traits, themes, & indicators by which there is a description of name-group (mental activity) were all absent, would designation-contact with regard to the form-group (the physical properties) be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"If the permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of form-group....

To what extent, Ananda, does one delineate when delineating a self? Either delineating a self possessed of form and finite, one delineates that 'My self is possessed of form...
:candle:
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:40 am
If consciousness were not to come into the mother׳s womb, would mind-and-body develop there?’ ‘No, Lord.’..... So, conception happens on the stage of consciousness in DO. What is before is the previous life.
The above is merely your personal interpretation. Nama-rupa in DN 15 appears literally about "naming-forms" as was previously taught in Brahminism; in which Brahminism provides the example of a father naming his son to explain what nama-rupa means. If the mother's consciousness does not enter into her womb, she cannot know she is pregnant with baby nor name her baby. If the mother's consciousness does not enter into her womb, her mind cannot make delineations of self about her and her baby. If consciousness does not connect with any object, including a baby in a womb, that object (form) cannot be named. Personally, I cannot imagine how you could derive the interpretation you have derived. Nama-rupa in Mahānidāna sutta is obviously about NAMING FORMS and for NAMING FORMS to occur, consciousness must 1st experiences these FORMS. In MN 38 the Buddha says of D.O.
Good, monks. You have been guided by me in this Dhamma which is to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the observant for themselves. For it has been said, 'This Dhamma is to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be by the observant for themselves,' and it was in reference to this that it was said.

MN 38
It appears what you wrote does not accord with the teaching above (which is also the Dhamma Refuge).
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:40 am
BTW, Have you read this post of mine viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32780&start=15#p487065
Its basically the 30 year anniversary of my literally meditating upon D.O. However, its the 10th anniversary of my reading the same old copied unverified opinions on D.O; similar to how the Buddha described a lineage of blind Brahmin teachers. Whatever you wrote appears to not accord with the Dhamma refuge I posted from MN 38.

In MN 38, about D.O. the Buddha taught the following, which applies to my good self. Whatever you post means nothing to me (and hopefully following this teaching, what I write means nothing to you, unless we agree) :smile:
"Knowing thus and seeing thus, would you say, 'The Teacher is our respected mentor. We speak thus out of respect for the Teacher'?"

"No, lord."

"Knowing thus and seeing thus, would you say, 'The Contemplative says this. We speak thus in line with the Contemplative's words'?"

"No, lord."

"Is it the case that you speak simply in line with what you have known, seen, & understood for yourselves?"

"Yes, lord." :bow:

MN 38
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by Volovsky » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:55 pm
It appears what you wrote does not accord with the teaching above (which is also the Dhamma Refuge).
You keep using these cheap discussion tricks and accuse me (not for the first time) that I misinterpret the Buddha, although I only cited the sutta. You don't have a copyright on truth. Therefore keep your personal ideas about me to yourself :thanks:

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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:57 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:38 am
ou keep using these cheap discussion tricks ...
Its obvious by the above it is not my good self using cheap discussion tricks.

:focus:


As I posted, 'nama-rupa' from DN 15 definitely appears to not refer to the mind & body but to naming forms. Allow me to quote again:
If the qualities, traits, themes, & indicators by which there is a description of name-group (mental activity)...

The permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of form-group....
:strawman:
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:44 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:23 am
The way I understand DO apply in this life itself right at this moment.
Some people try to split DO into three life model but it does not make any sense to me.
I don't think these are mutually exclusive. For example bhava can be seen as both "here and now", and as a cycle of birth and death in the three realms.
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Re: Paticcasamupadda - namarupa/name-and-form, vinnana/consciousness, and sankharas/fabrications

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:59 pm

reconciling these two;
"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
"Thus, Ananda, from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact.
In short;
one model both points out a cause and explains consecutive origination of created phenomena whereas the other merely explains the universal origination of created phenomena. Thus the two models start with different points of reference, one assumes the existence of the world to begin with to point out a cause before explaining volitional creation whilst the other merely explains the conditions for origination of the world.

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