What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dinsdale
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:15 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:02 am
If you can't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging, then could you explain the difference between Anatta and Atman?
I think in Hinduism there is the assumption of a transcendent reality "beneath" mundane experience, ie Atman/Brahman. You could say that practice is aimed at "seeing through" the usual identification with phenomena, and discovering this deeper reality.

In Theravada Buddhism there is the assumption of Nibbana, which some interpret as a transcendent reality.

The suttas seem mainly concerned with how we identify with the aggregates, and assume them to be self. So it's about challenging self-view.
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by James Tan » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:29 am

In Hinduism , Atman / Brahman is graspable affirmative goal whereas in Theravada Buddhism the goal ie Nibbana is described in many ways but Not Known and Ungraspable .
:reading:

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budo
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by budo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:30 am

The reason people get confused with hinduism vs buddhism is because Nibbana is an UNdoing, you are unraveling and deprogramming everything to the point of non-existence, it just so happens that non-existence is the most peaceful state.

In Hinduism you are merging with all-existence, that requires doing something, not undoing something.

The two are mutually exclusive to eachother, the Buddha says/implies there is no all-existence that is permanent and sensual, there is the retinue of Brahma which is sensual and non-permenent.

The Buddha is only interested in final permanent solutions to ending suffering, and the only way is Nibbana. So in other words, the permanent atman is a myth, there is only an impermenent brahma realm, according to the Buddha..

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by James Tan » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:51 am

Nibbana is not equivalent to non existence . Brahma is not equivalent to Brahman .
:reading:

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by budo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:01 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:51 am
Nibbana is not equivalent to non existence . Brahma is not equivalent to Brahman .
Label it whatever you want, at the end of the day you cannot have sensuality (6 senses) and permenence at the same time. Therefore as long as you have sensuality (6 senses) you have suffering/unsatisfaction. It is the law of reality.

So, the atman theory cannot be possible unless it is impermenent, then it's possible.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by James Tan » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:06 am

budo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:01 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:51 am
Nibbana is not equivalent to non existence . Brahma is not equivalent to Brahman .
Label it whatever you want, at the end of the day you cannot have sensuality (6 senses) and permenence at the same time. Therefore as long as you have sensuality (6 senses) you have suffering/unsatisfaction. It is the law of reality.

So, the atman theory cannot be possible unless it is impermenent, then it's possible.
It is Unprovable whether there is Atman or not .
:reading:

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budo
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by budo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:21 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:06 am
budo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:01 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:51 am
Nibbana is not equivalent to non existence . Brahma is not equivalent to Brahman .
Label it whatever you want, at the end of the day you cannot have sensuality (6 senses) and permenence at the same time. Therefore as long as you have sensuality (6 senses) you have suffering/unsatisfaction. It is the law of reality.

So, the atman theory cannot be possible unless it is impermenent, then it's possible.
It is Unprovable whether there is Atman or not .
It doesn't need to be proven, only if it's possible or not. I don't need to disprove superman exists if I know humans can't fly.
Last edited by budo on Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by James Tan » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:27 am

You are talking about something you don't know and making inference only .
:reading:

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budo
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by budo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:41 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:27 am
You are talking about something you don't know and making inference only .
How do you know the moon exists if you've never been on it? You're inferring its existence by looking at a visual image of it.

Do you also believe the Earth is flat because you've never driven fully across it?

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Bundokji » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:03 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:15 am
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:02 am
If you can't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging, then could you explain the difference between Anatta and Atman?
I think in Hinduism there is the assumption of a transcendent reality "beneath" mundane experience, ie Atman/Brahman. You could say that practice is aimed at "seeing through" the usual identification with phenomena, and discovering this deeper reality.

In Theravada Buddhism there is the assumption of Nibbana, which some interpret as a transcendent reality.

The suttas seem mainly concerned with how we identify with the aggregates, and assume them to be self. So it's about challenging self-view.
Thanks Dinsdale,

I was trying to compare the two from the perspective of change and if a changing phenomena can be considered a self. The idea of Atman or a soul implies unchanging self, while the Buddha taught that all conditioned things are impermanent and therefore (logically) not self.

I remember coming across an analogy comparing reincarnation (a Hindu concept) with rebirth (a Buddhist concept). Reincarnation was explained as if you transfer the water in one glass to another glass. The water is the same (self) but the glass has changed (not self). Rebirth was likened to lighting up a candle using the flame of another candle. The flame is not the same (not self) and the candle is not the same (not self).

What i am trying to say is that a "changing self" is an oxymoron and it is where deception seem to happen even if we experience the world in that way.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by James Tan » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:04 pm

budo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:41 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:27 am
You are talking about something you don't know and making inference only .
How do you know the moon exists if you've never been on it? You're inferring its existence by looking at a visual image of it.

Do you also believe the Earth is flat because you've never driven fully across it?
Friend , Atman is just a word . There is not a thing your six sense media can relate to it . Moon and earth is something your six sense media able to relate to .
This applies to Nibbana also if it is a state . If Nibbana is not a state , then that is absolutely unable for one to relate to .
:reading:

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:13 am

budo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:01 am
Label it whatever you want, at the end of the day you cannot have sensuality (6 senses) and permanence at the same time.
I don't see why not, if the permanent essence is hidden "beneath" the senses, which I think is what Hinduism teaches. You could say that the goal of Hindu practice is to discover the Self, while the goal of Buddhist practice is to discover Nibbana.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:19 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:03 am
What i am trying to say is that a "changing self" is an oxymoron and it is where deception seem to happen even if we experience the world in that way.
I think we are muddling up two rather different things here. One is belief/disbelief in Atman, the other is "psychological" self view, the sense of a "me" having experiences. The latter doesn't have to be unchanging or permanent.
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by budo » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:26 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:13 am
budo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:01 am
Label it whatever you want, at the end of the day you cannot have sensuality (6 senses) and permanence at the same time.
I don't see why not, if the permanent essence is hidden "beneath" the senses, which I think is what Hinduism teaches. You could say that the goal of Hindu practice is to discover the Self, while the goal of Buddhist practice is to discover the absence of Self.

Self or non-self aside,

If it comes to an end it is not permanent.

If there is movement then it must come to an end.

If it comes into existence, it must go out of existence.

There is no "beneath" the senses. If there are no senses, there is no perception, if there is no perception, there nothing to cognize.

If you feel bliss, you are cognizing. The moment you feel, you are automatically dealing with impermanence.

Only non existence is permanent. Hence the Buddha saying someone who is enlightened has no remainder, and cannot be found or recognized anywhere to anyone.

But even just ignoring that, if merging with the Atman has any form of perception, it is by default impermanent.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:44 am

budo wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:26 am
If it comes to an end it is not permanent.
Sure.
budo wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:26 am
If there is movement then it must come to an end.
Why couldn't something be there all the time, but perpetually changing? Like the weather, for example - the rain stops, but the weather continues.
budo wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:26 am
If it comes into existence, it must go out of existence.
This is only true if one believes that everything arises in dependence upon conditions. Apparently Nibbana doesn't, being unconditioned.
budo wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:26 am
There is no "beneath" the senses. If there are no senses, there is no perception, if there is no perception, there nothing to cognize.
Does the same apply to Nibbana? And not currently being aware of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it is not currently part of "our world" ( loka ).
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