What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

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Dinsdale
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:42 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:29 pm
The perception of a changing phenomena gives rise to the perception of unchanging self, and the perception of unchanging self gives rise to the perception of changing phenomena.
And yet we practice sati, which involves a quality of consistent awareness - "one who knows" as Ajahn Chah put it. Why do you assume that something unchanging must be a self?

This might warrant a new thread?
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Bundokji
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Bundokji » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:15 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:42 am
Bundokji wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:29 pm
The perception of a changing phenomena gives rise to the perception of unchanging self, and the perception of unchanging self gives rise to the perception of changing phenomena.
And yet we practice sati, which involves a quality of consistent awareness - "one who knows" as Ajahn Chah put it. Why do you assume that something unchanging must be a self?

This might warrant a new thread?
What I am saying is that there can't be a changing self, by definition.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:26 am

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:15 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:42 am
Bundokji wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:29 pm
The perception of a changing phenomena gives rise to the perception of unchanging self, and the perception of unchanging self gives rise to the perception of changing phenomena.
And yet we practice sati, which involves a quality of consistent awareness - "one who knows" as Ajahn Chah put it. Why do you assume that something unchanging must be a self?

This might warrant a new thread?
What I am saying is that there can't be a changing self, by definition.
What exactly do you mean by "self"? My sense of self is continually shifting. Or do you mean that sati / awareness cannot be unchanging?
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Bundokji
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Bundokji » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:17 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:26 am
What exactly do you mean by "self"? My sense of self is continually shifting. Or do you mean that sati / awareness cannot be unchanging?
There is a difference between what it means and how it is used. Literally, it means sameness or unchanging essence. Practically, it is a reference point to a constantly changing phenomena.

If we set awareness aside and focus on your own statement:
My sense of self is continually shifting
Notice that you highlighted the word "sense" which is shifting, and the word "my" is often taken for granted and goes unnoticed. If you analyze the meaning, you would see that the word "my" implies unchanging self perceiving a changing sense of the self. The two depend on each other which is the point i tried to make earlier.

Also note how this is related to the OP. We are talking about the clinging aggregates and the aggregates without clinging. What is the relationship, in your view, between the word "my" and clinging, if any?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by budo » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:19 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:42 am
Bundokji wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:29 pm
The perception of a changing phenomena gives rise to the perception of unchanging self, and the perception of unchanging self gives rise to the perception of changing phenomena.
And yet we practice sati, which involves a quality of consistent awareness - "one who knows" as Ajahn Chah put it. Why do you assume that something unchanging must be a self?

This might warrant a new thread?
Exactly.

I think when the Buddha uses Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta, he uses it as a rule of thumb to help people find Nibbana. Since we do not know what we do not know, we are walking blindly. When blind people walk they use their stick to see where they SHOULDN'T go, not where they should go, they feel around for dangers. To know where you should go would require that you know. Therefore Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta is like a walking stick for the blind.

Say you're in the 5th jhana, you may think you've attained enlightenment, but then if you follow the Buddha's safeguard, the walking stick, you can test for yourself, is this experience impermenent? yes. Ok, so is it therefore unsatisfactory? Yep, ok so should I stop here? Nope. Or should I continue searching? Yep.

I think too many people fall into the trap of looking at the finger (Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta) rather than to what the finger is pointing at (Nibbana).

Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta are safeguards you use to measure experience. They are a form of quality assurance to test your experience to see if they meet the standard of Nibbana.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by auto » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:05 pm

clinging aggregates are regards to what self view arises as a fetter and becoming is due then.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.
coming, going are the aggregates, that what makes up a being

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. One sees with right discernment that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.'..
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of form ...
..
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released.
property is aggregates what can be fed on, a source for nutriment

looks like aggregate eats aggregate, being eats being.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of the nutriment by which it has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.' Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a learner.
but the idea is stop killing etc so we should stop getting nourishment from others.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.
also,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Sustained by/clinging to the six properties, there is an alighting of an embryo. There being an alighting, there is name-&-form.
basically embryo descends on mind too not only physcally, so there aer non physcal beings we feast on.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:34 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:40 am
What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregates?

I think we should talk about the five clinging-aggregate when we talk about Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta.
Five, not clinging-aggregate is only Anicca, and Anatta but not Dukkha.
Am I correct? Please comment.
not correct because what is Anicca is to that extent Dukkha,
refer to;

SN 45.165
Dukkhata Sutta: Suffering
translated from the Pali by
Maurice O'Connell Walshe

"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."
Notes

1.
Dukkhataa, an abstract noun denoting "suffering" in the most general sense.
2.
Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
3.
Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena" (i.e., sankhaaras, in the most general sense: see BD [Buddhist Dictionary (2nd ed.), by Ven. Nyaa.natiloka, Ven. Nyaa.naponika (ed.), Colombo 1972] s.v. sankhaara I, 4). This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling. The suffering inherent in the formations has its roots in the imperfectability of all conditioned existence, and in the fact that there cannot be any final satisfaction within the incessant turning of the Wheel of Life. The neutral feeling associated with this type of suffering is especially the indifference of those who do not understand the fact of suffering and are not moved by it.
4.
Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change" (VM XIV, 35).
and Dhammapada c15;
There is no fire like lust,
No misfortune like hate,
No suffering like the aggregates,
And no happiness higher than peace.

Hunger is the foremost illness;
Sankharas the foremost suffering.
For one who knows this as it really is,
Nirvana is the foremost happiness.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:36 am

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:17 am
Notice that you highlighted the word "sense" which is shifting, and the word "my" is often taken for granted and goes unnoticed.
Sure, the "my" assumes there is an "I", a self having experiences - rather than just the experiences themselves, the sights, sounds, etc. ( see the Bahiya Sutta passage ).
Bundokji wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:17 am
If you analyze the meaning, you would see that the word "my" implies unchanging self perceiving a changing sense of the self. The two depend on each other which is the point i tried to make earlier.
Sorry, but I still don't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging - it's about ownership, not consistency.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:37 am

budo wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:19 am
I think too many people fall into the trap of looking at the finger (Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta) rather than to what the finger is pointing at (Nibbana).
Good point.
budo wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:19 am
Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta are safeguards you use to measure experience. They are a form of quality assurance to test your experience to see if they meet the standard of Nibbana.
I also see awareness of the 3 marks as a means of developing nibbidā ( disillusionment ). It's like a turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned.
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:02 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:36 am
Sorry, but I still don't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging - it's about ownership, not consistency.
If you can't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging, then could you explain the difference between Anatta and Atman?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:02 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:36 am
Sorry, but I still don't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging - it's about ownership, not consistency.
If you can't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging, then could you explain the difference between Anatta and Atman?
Another way of looking at this is to reflect on whether ownership can be anything other than consistent. Unless the "owner" is there all the time, nothing is really owned.

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Bundokji
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:04 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 am
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:02 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:36 am
Sorry, but I still don't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging - it's about ownership, not consistency.
If you can't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging, then could you explain the difference between Anatta and Atman?
Another way of looking at this is to reflect on whether ownership can be anything other than consistent. Unless the "owner" is there all the time, nothing is really owned.
Thanks Sam :anjali:

And yet, when we practice, we cannot help but try to identify a discernible trend. If there is none, then liberation would be impossible in my opinion.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:30 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:04 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 am
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:02 am


If you can't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging, then could you explain the difference between Anatta and Atman?
Another way of looking at this is to reflect on whether ownership can be anything other than consistent. Unless the "owner" is there all the time, nothing is really owned.
Thanks Sam :anjali:

And yet, when we practice, we cannot help but try to identify a discernible trend. If there is none, then liberation would be impossible in my opinion.
Agreed. If there were no discernible trend, then liberation would not even be desirable!

Yet Dinsdale's post raises an interesting problem. Experiences are not linked to a consistent experiencer, but nevertheless there is something that differentiates my experiences from your experiences; and that links one person's earlier experiences with their later experiences. It is this apparent linking of experiences over space and time that implies consistency, and therefore (albeit in a metaphorical way) the "ownership" of that experience.

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Bundokji
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:59 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:30 am
Agreed. If there were no discernible trend, then liberation would not even be desirable!

Yet Dinsdale's post raises an interesting problem. Experiences are not linked to a consistent experiencer, but nevertheless there is something that differentiates my experiences from your experiences; and that links one person's earlier experiences with their later experiences. It is this apparent linking of experiences over space and time that implies consistency, and therefore (albeit in a metaphorical way) the "ownership" of that experience.
I think what differentiate my experience from your experience is the conditions that gave rise to our minds. Even if the sense of ownership might disappear in the case of the Arahant, s/he does not live alone but with others who believe him/her to be the owner of his/her actions. This is why, in a way, the Arahant is still the owner of his/her actions and he would experience their fruits, but would no longer cause him/her suffering according to my understanding. This, to me, shows how our conscious experience is not as private as we feel it to be, and how transforming our minds would benefit the whole world.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by auto » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:49 am

clinging aggregates are cultivated by developing concentration what leads to ridding of effluents, so that aggregates would have no footing to take place.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of form...
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling...
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception...
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications...
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

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