And yet we practice sati, which involves a quality of consistent awareness - "one who knows" as Ajahn Chah put it. Why do you assume that something unchanging must be a self?
This might warrant a new thread?
And yet we practice sati, which involves a quality of consistent awareness - "one who knows" as Ajahn Chah put it. Why do you assume that something unchanging must be a self?
What I am saying is that there can't be a changing self, by definition.
What exactly do you mean by "self"? My sense of self is continually shifting. Or do you mean that sati / awareness cannot be unchanging?Bundokji wrote: ↑Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:15 pmWhat I am saying is that there can't be a changing self, by definition.
There is a difference between what it means and how it is used. Literally, it means sameness or unchanging essence. Practically, it is a reference point to a constantly changing phenomena.
Notice that you highlighted the word "sense" which is shifting, and the word "my" is often taken for granted and goes unnoticed. If you analyze the meaning, you would see that the word "my" implies unchanging self perceiving a changing sense of the self. The two depend on each other which is the point i tried to make earlier.My sense of self is continually shifting
Exactly.
coming, going are the aggregates, that what makes up a being"Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. One sees with right discernment that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.'..
property is aggregates what can be fed on, a source for nutriment"If a monk abandons passion for the property of form ...
..
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released.
but the idea is stop killing etc so we should stop getting nourishment from others.Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of the nutriment by which it has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.' Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a learner.
also,"This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.
basically embryo descends on mind too not only physcally, so there aer non physcal beings we feast on."Sustained by/clinging to the six properties, there is an alighting of an embryo. There being an alighting, there is name-&-form.
not correct because what is Anicca is to that extent Dukkha,SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:40 am What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregates?
I think we should talk about the five clinging-aggregate when we talk about Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta.
Five, not clinging-aggregate is only Anicca, and Anatta but not Dukkha.
Am I correct? Please comment.
and Dhammapada c15;
SN 45.165
Dukkhata Sutta: Suffering
translated from the Pali by
Maurice O'Connell Walshe
"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."
Notes
1.
Dukkhataa, an abstract noun denoting "suffering" in the most general sense.
2.
Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
3.
Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena" (i.e., sankhaaras, in the most general sense: see BD [Buddhist Dictionary (2nd ed.), by Ven. Nyaa.natiloka, Ven. Nyaa.naponika (ed.), Colombo 1972] s.v. sankhaara I, 4). This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling. The suffering inherent in the formations has its roots in the imperfectability of all conditioned existence, and in the fact that there cannot be any final satisfaction within the incessant turning of the Wheel of Life. The neutral feeling associated with this type of suffering is especially the indifference of those who do not understand the fact of suffering and are not moved by it.
4.
Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change" (VM XIV, 35).
There is no fire like lust,
No misfortune like hate,
No suffering like the aggregates,
And no happiness higher than peace.
Hunger is the foremost illness;
Sankharas the foremost suffering.
For one who knows this as it really is,
Nirvana is the foremost happiness.
Sure, the "my" assumes there is an "I", a self having experiences - rather than just the experiences themselves, the sights, sounds, etc. ( see the Bahiya Sutta passage ).
Sorry, but I still don't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging - it's about ownership, not consistency.
Good point.
I also see awareness of the 3 marks as a means of developing nibbidā ( disillusionment ). It's like a turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned.
If you can't see how "my" or "self" implies unchanging, then could you explain the difference between Anatta and Atman?
Another way of looking at this is to reflect on whether ownership can be anything other than consistent. Unless the "owner" is there all the time, nothing is really owned.
Thanks SamSam Vara wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 amAnother way of looking at this is to reflect on whether ownership can be anything other than consistent. Unless the "owner" is there all the time, nothing is really owned.
Agreed. If there were no discernible trend, then liberation would not even be desirable!Bundokji wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:04 amThanks Sam
And yet, when we practice, we cannot help but try to identify a discernible trend. If there is none, then liberation would be impossible in my opinion.
I think what differentiate my experience from your experience is the conditions that gave rise to our minds. Even if the sense of ownership might disappear in the case of the Arahant, s/he does not live alone but with others who believe him/her to be the owner of his/her actions. This is why, in a way, the Arahant is still the owner of his/her actions and he would experience their fruits, but would no longer cause him/her suffering according to my understanding. This, to me, shows how our conscious experience is not as private as we feel it to be, and how transforming our minds would benefit the whole world.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:30 am Agreed. If there were no discernible trend, then liberation would not even be desirable!
Yet Dinsdale's post raises an interesting problem. Experiences are not linked to a consistent experiencer, but nevertheless there is something that differentiates my experiences from your experiences; and that links one person's earlier experiences with their later experiences. It is this apparent linking of experiences over space and time that implies consistency, and therefore (albeit in a metaphorical way) the "ownership" of that experience.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of form...
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling...
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception...
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications...
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"