What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

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SarathW
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What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by SarathW » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:40 am

What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregates?

I think we should talk about the five clinging-aggregate when we talk about Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta.
Five, not clinging-aggregate is only Anicca, and Anatta but not Dukkha.
Am I correct? Please comment.
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:29 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:40 am
Five, not clinging-aggregate is only Anicca, and Anatta but not Dukkha.
Am I correct? Please comment.
The Khandha Sutta does make a distinction between "plain" aggregates and clinging aggregates.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

On the other hand, it would appear that "plain" aggregates still involve dukkha-dukkhataa ( pain or "ordinary" suffering ).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by paul » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:42 am

Because the aggregates are no longer subject to clinging, the arahant feels pleasure and pain but is disjoined from it:

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress."---SN 36.6

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:09 am

paul wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:42 am
Because the aggregates are no longer subject to clinging, the arahant feels pleasure and pain but is disjoined from it:

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress."---SN 36.6
Though being "disjoined" from pain doesn't mean that one is actually free of pain. One is still struck by the first arrow, the ancient equivalent of a gunshot wound.
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DooDoot
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:26 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:40 am
Five, not clinging-aggregate is only Anicca, and Anatta but not Dukkha.
Am I correct? Please comment.
Not correct per SN 22.59 but I won't comment. I will claim my Vacchagotta right to silence on this. :)
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Bundokji » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:35 pm

I think the Anicca, Dukkha Anatta refer to volitional actions only. The aggregates themselves without clinging are only Anatta.

Atta is a necessary condition for Anicca and Dukkha.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

SarathW
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by SarathW » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:13 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:35 pm
I think the Anicca, Dukkha Anatta refer to volitional actions only. The aggregates themselves without clinging are only Anatta.

Atta is a necessary condition for Anicca and Dukkha.
The aggregates themselves without clinging are only Anatta.
Why not Anicca as well?
Atta is a necessary condition for Anicca and Dukkha.
I can't see Atta (self-view) is a necessary condition for Anicca.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by SarathW » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:22 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:26 pm
SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:40 am
Five, not clinging-aggregate is only Anicca, and Anatta but not Dukkha.
Am I correct? Please comment.
Not correct per SN 22.59 but I won't comment. I will claim my Vacchagotta right to silence on this. :)
I am sorry I did not get your point or answer to my question.

SN22.59

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.9/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:03 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:22 pm
SN22.59
SN 22.59 translated from the Pali by N.K.G. Mendis. Dr. N.K.G. Mendis graduated from the Medical Faculty of the University of Sri Lanka in 1946 .
Dhp 278 translated from the Pali by Acharya Buddharakkhita. Acharya Buddharakkhita (1922-2013) was born in Manipur, India.
"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is unsatisfactory. That which is unsatisfactory has ceased and gone to its end."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
You seem to believe non-attached-to-aggregates are satisfactory and can therefore bring lasting happiness. Do you think the bubbles in the video can bring lasting happiness, whether or not they are attached to? :shrug:

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SarathW
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by SarathW » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:22 am

What I am saying is the bubble itself is not Dukkha.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by pegembara » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:50 am

Don't play with sandcastles(5 aggregates). Their nature is dukkha.
"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish [form], and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for [form].

.......for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Bhikkhus, [five aggregates] are not-self. Were [they] self, then [they] would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of them: 'Let them be thus, let them be not thus.' And since they are not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of them: 'Let them be thus, let them be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in the five aggregates

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:47 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:22 am
What I am saying is the bubble itself is not Dukkha.
I have quoted many times recently for you (and won't quote it again) that the Buddha said: "That which is impermanent is dukkha". SN 22.85 about Yamaka (previously posted) says the impermanent aggregates of an arahant are dukkha. Also, many suttas say arahant experience dukkha vedana. Therefore, it appears you don't know what the word "dukkha" can mean. It seems you have faith in Western Buddhism and Western translators and cling to one meaning of the word (similar to Bhikkhus Thanissaro, Bodhi and Sujato). Compare the translations below:
6. Sabbe baṅkhārā dukkhā'ti yadā paññāya passati. Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā.

278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

Acharya Buddharakkhita
When you see with discernment,
'All fabrications are stressful' —
you grow disenchanted with stress.
This is the path
to purity.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu
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Bundokji
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:40 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:13 pm
Why not Anicca as well?
I can't see Atta (self-view) is a necessary condition for Anicca.
By definition, the existence of a "conditioned" phenomena depends on the conditions that supports its existence (hence its impermanence). For example, the existence of a living human being depends on air for breathing, water for drinking, food for energy, temperature within a certain range ...etc. So, there has to be a conditioned self to begin with for it to be impermanent.

A conditioned self, however, is not self. When the not self nature of a conditioned phenomena is seen (such as the case of the aggregates without clinging), then impermanence is no longer applicable as there is no self to change to begin with.

For change to have any meaning, it requires one unifying reference point across time and space. For example:

X was seen in a certain state
X was seen in a different state (at a later point in time)
Conclusion - X has changed.

So, change is never directly experienced, but inferred. This inference do not seem valid for someone who realized Anatta.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:30 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:40 am
So, change is never directly experienced, but inferred.
When you practice mindfulness of breathing, are you inferring the bodily sensations involved?
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Bundokji
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Re: What is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the five clinging-aggregate?

Post by Bundokji » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:29 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:30 am
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:40 am
So, change is never directly experienced, but inferred.
When you practice mindfulness of breathing, are you inferring the bodily sensations involved?
When you practice mindfulness of breathing, you are watching the movement of the mind.

What is the movement of the mind?

The perception of a changing phenomena gives rise to the perception of unchanging self, and the perception of unchanging self gives rise to the perception of changing phenomena.

The perception of unchanging self fills the gap between separate/ independent conscious entities, gives the impression of self continuity.

When you contemplate the above, you can imagine how an Arahant experiences the world. Each conscious experience is independent and at the same time dependent. Depending on the eye and the object of experience, eye consciousness arise, but it is separate from other conscious experiences. The Arahant is the space between the independent conscious experiences. The Arahant is NOT the space between a conscious experience and the after it.

If you assume the above to be a correct description (just for the sake of discussion), then why do we need to practice diligently for many years in order to see what is right infront of our eyes?

Because of the implications of what it means to be free from suffering. If the above is an accurate description of what it means to be free from suffering, then all of our suffering is not only unnecessary, but also meaningless. The above proves our own insignificance. The self, by definition, is self fulfilling. It creates problems in order to solve them. It creates meaning and suffers from emptiness. And it creates desires and seeks to satisfy them. It loves Drama, and the main significance of the Buddhist path is that it simply works. This is not good enough for our conceited ego

All in my opinion.
He was a willing and diligent pupil and was able to attain the fruit of stream-entry already during his first rains retreat (Cv VII.1).[8] Later Ananda told his fellow monks, that the venerable Punna Mantaniputta had been of great help to him during his learning period. He had taught Dhamma to the new monks and had explained to them that the "I am" conceit does not arise without a cause — namely, it is brought about through form, feeling, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness. For a better understanding of this, the venerable Punna had given a fitting analogy:

If somebody should want to see his reflection or image, he could do so only through a cause, namely a mirror or a clear body of water. In the same way do the five aggregates[9] reflect the image of "I am." As long as one depends on them and is supported by them, so long will an "I" be reflected. Only when one does not rely on them any longer, will the image of "I" disappear.

— SN 22.83

Ananda thought about this analogy again and again and ever more deeply, until he penetrated the suffering, impermanence and no-self aspects of the five aggregates, and no longer relied upon them as his support. He then began to reap the benefits of monkhood, beginning with the fruit of stream-entry.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el273.html
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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