“Enters & Remains”

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DooDoot
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:14 am

Pondera wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:13 am
Curiosity beckons me to ask what the out-of-the-ordinary meaning is, in this case?
Ajahn Brahmn's opinion is below:
THE FIRST JHANA

The “Wobble” (Vitakka and Vicára). All jhanas are states of unmoving
bliss, almost. However, in the first jhana, there is some movement
discernible. I call this movement the “wobble” of first jhana. One is
aware of great bliss, so powerful it has subdued completely the part of
the ego that wills and does. In jhana, one is on automatic pilot, as it
were, with no sense if being in control. However, the bliss is so delicious
that it can generate a small residue of attachment. The mind, not the
doer, instinctively grasps at the bliss. Because the bliss of first jhana is
fuelled by letting go, such involuntary grasping weakens the bliss.
Seeing the bliss weaken, the mind automatically lets go of its grasping
and the bliss increases in power again. The mind then grasps again,
then lets go again. Such subtle involuntary movement gives rise to the
wobble of first jhana.

This process can be perceived in another way. As the bliss weakens
because of the involuntary grasping, it seems as if the mindfulness
moves a small distance away from the bliss. Then the mindfulness gets
pulled back into the bliss as the mind automatically lets go. This back
and forth movement close to the bliss, is a second way of describing the
same first jhana wobble.

This wobble is, in fact, the pair of first jhana factors called vitakka and
vicára. Vicára is the involuntary grasping of bliss vitakka is the
automatic movement back into bliss. Some commentators explain the
pair, vitakka and vicára as “initial thought” and “sustained thought.”
While in other contexts this pair can refer to thought, in jhana they
certainly mean something else. It is impossible that such a gross
activity as thinking can exist in such a refined state as jhana. In
fact, thinking ceases a long time prior to jhana. In jhana, vitakka and
vicára are both sub-verbal and so don’t qualify as thought. Vitakka is
the sub-verbal movement of the mid back into bliss. Vicára is the subverbal
movement of mind that holds onto the bliss. Outside of jhana,
such movements of mind will often generate thought, and sometimes
even speech. But in jhana, vitakka and vicára are too subtle to create
any thought. All they are capable of doing is moving mindfulness back
onto bliss, and holding mindfulness there. This movement is the wobble
of the first jhana, represented as the pair of first jhana factors vitakka
and vicára.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.pdf
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

SavakaNik
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by SavakaNik » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:33 pm

Pondera wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:08 am
SavakaNik wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:34 pm
Enters means the 5 hindrances have been suppressed at the arising of the 5 Jhana factors, remains means one sustains his concentration in doing so.
Not according to Leigh Brasington. See here:

http://www.leighb.com/jhana_4factors.htm
Fair point thanks for bringing that up! The main thing I wanted to get across was 'entering' is the suppression of the hindrances at the arising of the jhana factors - in that I don't think it's the case that you can suppress the hindrances but yet have to bring the Jhana factors to arise - they both occur via the one and same effort.

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budo
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by budo » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:42 pm

SavakaNik wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:33 pm
Pondera wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:08 am
SavakaNik wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:34 pm
Enters means the 5 hindrances have been suppressed at the arising of the 5 Jhana factors, remains means one sustains his concentration in doing so.
Not according to Leigh Brasington. See here:

http://www.leighb.com/jhana_4factors.htm
Fair point thanks for bringing that up! The main thing I wanted to get across was 'entering' is the suppression of the hindrances at the arising of the jhana factors - in that I don't think it's the case that you can suppress the hindrances but yet have to bring the Jhana factors to arise - they both occur via the one and same effort.
Yes and no at the same time.. the weakest link is what prevents you from entering Jhana. Someone may not have any ill-will but very strong sloth. Someone may not have the first four hindrances but may have strong doubt because they never experienced jhana before, or they have a lot of fear..

So all 5 hindrances have to be suppressed at the same time, therefore one has to work on their weakest link and apply the right antidote.

I've entered jhanas many times in the past, but haven't in the past few months because of strong sloth and low determination, since I already experienced it so many times the novelty effect has faded for me so I lack the determination to develop enough momentum to overcome the sloth.

I personally think sloth is the hardest hindrance to overcome for intermediate-advanced meditators, since the thrill of jhana is gone and thus one requires more effort and energy to attain jhanas.

Desire is a huge source of energy, but when desire fades everything becomes a lot harder. This is why I think attaining stream entry and once-returner is very easy, but attaining non-returner is extremely hard. I also think it's extremely unlikely in modern times for a lay person to attain non-returner or arahant, even though it's possible, since they need to find a motivation to derive energy from.

2600htz
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by 2600htz » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:23 pm

Hello:

The meaning is that the individual enters a state, and remains in that state lol.
I don`t know how you guys managed to talk 2 pages about that haha.

Regards.

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Pondera
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Pondera » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:15 am

2600htz wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:23 pm
Hello:

The meaning is that the individual enters a state, and remains in that state lol.
I don`t know how you guys managed to talk 2 pages about that haha.

Regards.
It’s a mystery, isn’t it?

For you it may be simple. “He enters a coma”.

For me it may be more complicated. “He enters a room”. Ie. “He physically moves into the room.”

For you it may be simple. The jhana may be a mind state. For me it may be more complicated. The jhana may be a sphere of perception - like the earth or the water kasina.

That’s why the discussion went on for two pages.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

2600htz
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by 2600htz » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:06 pm

Pondera wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:15 am
2600htz wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:23 pm
Hello:

The meaning is that the individual enters a state, and remains in that state lol.
I don`t know how you guys managed to talk 2 pages about that haha.

Regards.
It’s a mystery, isn’t it?

For you it may be simple. “He enters a coma”.

For me it may be more complicated. “He enters a room”. Ie. “He physically moves into the room.”

For you it may be simple. The jhana may be a mind state. For me it may be more complicated. The jhana may be a sphere of perception - like the earth or the water kasina.

That’s why the discussion went on for two pages.
Hi:
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
You have a mind without hidrances and distractions, a body, perceptions, feelings of rapture and pleasure in body and mind, etc.
You enter this state, and you remain there as long as you want/can.
Is that your question?, or i am not understanding well.

Regards.

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Pondera
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Pondera » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:44 am

    2600htz:

    Many believe astral travel implies a full blown out of body experience. The subtle reality is that an astral “projection” is just that - a projection. One projects their astral body out side of there physical body to travel into space (or wherever). The “astral plane”, ie.

    The question is: in jhana, does one project their mind into some sphere of some sort or another in order to “enter and remain” in that jhana absorption? Ie. is that a reality or a possibility? Ie. what is “contact” coming into contact with?
    Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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    budo
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    Re: “Enters & Remains”

    Post by budo » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:35 am

    Pondera wrote:
    Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:44 am
      2600htz:

      The question is: in jhana, does one project their mind into some sphere of some sort or another in order to “enter and remain” in that jhana absorption? Ie. is that a reality or a possibility? Ie. what is “contact” coming into contact with?
      Good question! I don't know if there is sutta support for my theory, but I would say that the mind is an antenna. There is no self in the mind, the mind doesn't go anywhere, it just receives signals, sometimes those signals bring in half segmented visual pictures from far away just like a huge telescope on Earth can see stars in other galaxies.

      So in my opinion, the mind doesn't contain anything and doesn't "go" anywhere, it is simply a radio antenna that can tune its frequency to pick up signals. The stronger the concentration the more power the antenna has.

      In the case of astral projection, that would be like a satellite sending a signal, the weaker the concentration, the weaker the signal being sent. The question is, how strong can the mind get? How powerful was the Buddha's mind?

      Another of my unsupported theories is that the Buddha never met a lot of people in the flesh, but instead meditated in a cave and projected himself onto their antennas. Just like that murderer who tried to chase him down but couldn't.
      Last edited by budo on Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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      Re: “Enters & Remains”

      Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:47 am

      Pondera wrote:
      Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:15 am
      The jhana may be a mind state. For me it may be more complicated. The jhana may be a sphere of perception - like the earth or the water kasina.
      Good point. I think there is the same ambiguity around Nibbana.
      Buddha save me from new-agers!

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      Re: “Enters & Remains”

      Post by 2600htz » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:36 pm

      Pondera wrote:
      Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:44 am
        2600htz:

        Many believe astral travel implies a full blown out of body experience. The subtle reality is that an astral “projection” is just that - a projection. One projects their astral body out side of there physical body to travel into space (or wherever). The “astral plane”, ie.

        The question is: in jhana, does one project their mind into some sphere of some sort or another in order to “enter and remain” in that jhana absorption? Ie. is that a reality or a possibility? Ie. what is “contact” coming into contact with?
        Hello:

        I think thats a different thing, more in line with supernormal powers, like when the Buddha makes a description on how to create a mind-made body ("just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath").

        The jhanas are mental states, possibilities of the mind, people can do jhana even walking (AN 3. 63), so mind its here, in this reality (unless we take a very broad approach of what "reality" means, so we could say: sure, every change in the mind is another reality, another sphere.

        What is "contact" coming into contact with?, i think depends on the jhana. But if we take the first one contact should be coming into contact with non-sensuality, contact with skillful qualities, contact with rapture, with pleasure, with the object of meditation, etc.

        Regards.

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        rightviewftw
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        Re: “Enters & Remains”

        Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:08 pm

        Imo the passage from MN1
        The Blessed One said: "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — perceives earth as earth. Perceiving earth as earth, he conceives [things] about earth, he conceives [things] in earth, he conceives [things] coming out of earth, he conceives earth as 'mine,' he delights in earth. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you. MN 1
        refers to a person who has not transcended the view of direct realism and still thinks that the world is ultimately such as the senses present it rather than realizing that the world is perceived and conceived by the senses, he thus postulates existence of "things" outside of the All.
        The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
        whereas for the person versed in the doctrine there is;
        In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. [...] only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized...
        What one sees that one objectifies ie as earth or a person
        Based on that objectification one thinks about those concepts such as "earth is", a "person is" or "I am"
        Thinking of concepts such as "earth is", a "person is" or "I am" one might get assailed by craving or notions and ideas related to that concept, ie
        There being 'I am,' there comes to be 'I am here,' there comes to be 'I am like this' ... 'I am otherwise' ... 'I am bad' ... 'I am good' ... 'I might be' ... 'I might be here' ... 'I might be like this' ... 'I might be otherwise' ... 'May I be' ... 'May I be here' ... 'May I be like this' ... 'May I be otherwise' ... 'I will be' ... 'I will be here' ... 'I will be like this' ... 'I will be otherwise.'
        or
        Perceiving earth as earth, he conceives [things] about earth, he conceives [things] in earth, he conceives [things] coming out of earth, he conceives earth as 'mine,' he delights in earth.
        People versed in the doctrine understand this and train themselves to let seen be the seen and so they do not conceive of "I am" and are thus not assailed by craving based on that notion etc
        then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two.
        and so they do not postulate the existence of anything outside of the All

        A related passage fwiw
        "And how is one not taken in with regard to present qualities? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones who has seen the noble ones, is versed in the teachings of the noble ones, is well-trained in the teachings of the noble ones, does not see form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form.

        "He/she does not see feeling as self, or self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling.

        "He/she does not see perception as self, or self as possessing perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception.

        "He/she does not see thought-fabrications as self, or self as possessing thought-fabrications, or thought-fabrications as in self, or self as in thought-fabrications.

        "He/she does not see consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. This is called not being taken in with regard to present qualities.

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        Pondera
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        Re: “Enters & Remains”

        Post by Pondera » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:55 am

        DooDoot wrote:
        Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:14 am
        Pondera wrote:
        Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:13 am
        Curiosity beckons me to ask what the out-of-the-ordinary meaning is, in this case?
        Ajahn Brahmn's opinion is below:
        THE FIRST JHANA

        The “Wobble” (Vitakka and Vicára). All jhanas are states of unmoving
        bliss, almost. However, in the first jhana, there is some movement
        discernible. I call this movement the “wobble” of first jhana. One is
        aware of great bliss, so powerful it has subdued completely the part of
        the ego that wills and does. In jhana, one is on automatic pilot, as it
        were, with no sense if being in control. However, the bliss is so delicious
        that it can generate a small residue of attachment. The mind, not the
        doer, instinctively grasps at the bliss. Because the bliss of first jhana is
        fuelled by letting go, such involuntary grasping weakens the bliss.
        Seeing the bliss weaken, the mind automatically lets go of its grasping
        and the bliss increases in power again. The mind then grasps again,
        then lets go again. Such subtle involuntary movement gives rise to the
        wobble of first jhana.

        This process can be perceived in another way. As the bliss weakens
        because of the involuntary grasping, it seems as if the mindfulness
        moves a small distance away from the bliss. Then the mindfulness gets
        pulled back into the bliss as the mind automatically lets go. This back
        and forth movement close to the bliss, is a second way of describing the
        same first jhana wobble.

        This wobble is, in fact, the pair of first jhana factors called vitakka and
        vicára. Vicára is the involuntary grasping of bliss vitakka is the
        automatic movement back into bliss. Some commentators explain the
        pair, vitakka and vicára as “initial thought” and “sustained thought.”
        While in other contexts this pair can refer to thought, in jhana they
        certainly mean something else. It is impossible that such a gross
        activity as thinking can exist in such a refined state as jhana. In
        fact, thinking ceases a long time prior to jhana. In jhana, vitakka and
        vicára are both sub-verbal and so don’t qualify as thought. Vitakka is
        the sub-verbal movement of the mid back into bliss. Vicára is the subverbal
        movement of mind that holds onto the bliss. Outside of jhana,
        such movements of mind will often generate thought, and sometimes
        even speech. But in jhana, vitakka and vicára are too subtle to create
        any thought. All they are capable of doing is moving mindfulness back
        onto bliss, and holding mindfulness there. This movement is the wobble
        of the first jhana, represented as the pair of first jhana factors vitakka
        and vicára.

        https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.pdf
        Ajahn Brahm is a nimitta guy, isn’t he? Doesn’t “entering” the nimitta rely on a movement of the mind? Or does the nimitta simply grow to a point where it envelops the practitioner - for as I understand it; a nimitta bliss is an unconscious experience in which one is enveloped by the nimitta - ie. one loses oneself (literally) in the nimitta?

        Weird in any event because the suttas state that “... pleasure leads to concentration...” - and that pleasure and concentration are both conscious aspects of the absorption (as I understand it). :shrug:
        Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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        budo
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        Re: “Enters & Remains”

        Post by budo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:51 am

        Pondera wrote:
        Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:55 am
        DooDoot wrote:
        Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:14 am
        Pondera wrote:
        Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:13 am
        Curiosity beckons me to ask what the out-of-the-ordinary meaning is, in this case?
        Ajahn Brahmn's opinion is below:
        THE FIRST JHANA

        The “Wobble” (Vitakka and Vicára). All jhanas are states of unmoving
        bliss, almost. However, in the first jhana, there is some movement
        discernible. I call this movement the “wobble” of first jhana. One is
        aware of great bliss, so powerful it has subdued completely the part of
        the ego that wills and does. In jhana, one is on automatic pilot, as it
        were, with no sense if being in control. However, the bliss is so delicious
        that it can generate a small residue of attachment. The mind, not the
        doer, instinctively grasps at the bliss. Because the bliss of first jhana is
        fuelled by letting go, such involuntary grasping weakens the bliss.
        Seeing the bliss weaken, the mind automatically lets go of its grasping
        and the bliss increases in power again. The mind then grasps again,
        then lets go again. Such subtle involuntary movement gives rise to the
        wobble of first jhana.

        This process can be perceived in another way. As the bliss weakens
        because of the involuntary grasping, it seems as if the mindfulness
        moves a small distance away from the bliss. Then the mindfulness gets
        pulled back into the bliss as the mind automatically lets go. This back
        and forth movement close to the bliss, is a second way of describing the
        same first jhana wobble.

        This wobble is, in fact, the pair of first jhana factors called vitakka and
        vicára. Vicára is the involuntary grasping of bliss vitakka is the
        automatic movement back into bliss. Some commentators explain the
        pair, vitakka and vicára as “initial thought” and “sustained thought.”
        While in other contexts this pair can refer to thought, in jhana they
        certainly mean something else. It is impossible that such a gross
        activity as thinking can exist in such a refined state as jhana. In
        fact, thinking ceases a long time prior to jhana. In jhana, vitakka and
        vicára are both sub-verbal and so don’t qualify as thought. Vitakka is
        the sub-verbal movement of the mid back into bliss. Vicára is the subverbal
        movement of mind that holds onto the bliss. Outside of jhana,
        such movements of mind will often generate thought, and sometimes
        even speech. But in jhana, vitakka and vicára are too subtle to create
        any thought. All they are capable of doing is moving mindfulness back
        onto bliss, and holding mindfulness there. This movement is the wobble
        of the first jhana, represented as the pair of first jhana factors vitakka
        and vicára.

        https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.pdf
        Ajahn Brahm is a nimitta guy, isn’t he? Doesn’t “entering” the nimitta rely on a movement of the mind? Or does the nimitta simply grow to a point where it envelops the practitioner - for as I understand it; a nimitta bliss is an unconscious experience in which one is enveloped by the nimitta - ie. one loses oneself (literally) in the nimitta?

        Weird in any event because the suttas state that “... pleasure leads to concentration...” - and that pleasure and concentration are both conscious aspects of the absorption (as I understand it). :shrug:
        Sati requires perception. As far as I know, only the eighth jhana has no sati because there is no perception.

        Here are jhanas 7 and 8, and nirodha samapatti where sariputta enters and remains, notice in 7th jhana he can discern within the jhana, but on 8th jhana he can only compare up to the point of entering and exiting the jhana which qualities have changed:



        "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

        "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]

        "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.

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