“Enters & Remains”

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Pondera
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“Enters & Remains”

Post by Pondera » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 pm

What is the meaning of “enters & remains”?
“There is the case where a monk, quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. AN 9.32
Buddha teaches to “direct” and “incline” thoughts. He also speaks:
The Blessed One said: "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — perceives earth as earth. Perceiving earth as earth, he conceives [things] about earth, he conceives [things] in earth, he conceives [things] coming out of earth, he conceives earth as 'mine,' he delights in earth. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you. MN 1
Furthermore, the Buddha says:
2. There are, beggars, ten kasiṇa[1] deployments.[2]
What ten?
One perceives the earth-kasiṇa above, below, across, united, immeasurable.
One perceives the water-kasiṇa above, below, across, united, immeasurable.
One perceives the firelight-kasiṇa above, below, across, united, immeasurable.
One perceives the wind-kasiṇa above, below, across, united, immeasurable.
One perceives the blue-kasiṇa above, below, across, united, immeasurable.
One perceives the yellow-kasiṇa above, below, across, united, immeasurable.
One perceives the red-kasiṇa above, below, across, united, immeasurable.
One perceives the white-kasiṇa above, below, across, united, immeasurable.
One perceives the space-kasiṇa above, below, across, united, immeasurable.
One perceives the consciousness-kasiṇa above, below, across, united, immeasurable.
These then, beggars, are the ten kasiṇa deployments.AN 10.25
Is the earth kasina, for example, the “comprehension” of earth which the Buddha refers to in MN 1? And if the kasina is indeed “everywhere” then what does it mean to enter & remain there? Or is kasina comprehension simply another perversion about the object?
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Zom
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Zom » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:25 am

Is the earth kasina, for example, the “comprehension” of earth which the Buddha refers to in MN 1?
No. MN 1 comprehension of the earth means that one no longer bases his self-view on the "earth".
And if the kasina is indeed “everywhere” then what does it mean to enter & remain there?
One can "enter and remain there", because this is a special meditative in-jhanic state with perception wholly tuned on "earth" element.

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Pondera
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Pondera » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:56 am

Thank you for your reply
Zom wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:25 am
Is the earth kasina, for example, the “comprehension” of earth which the Buddha refers to in MN 1?
No. MN 1 comprehension of the earth means that one no longer bases his self-view on the "earth".
Ah. I see.
And if the kasina is indeed “everywhere” then what does it mean to enter & remain there?
One can "enter and remain there", because this is a special meditative in-jhanic state with perception wholly tuned on "earth" element.
How does one “permeate and suffuse” ones body with the joy and pleasure of that state if it is merely a state of perception? In other words, does the earth element itself come into contact with the body during jhana?
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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DooDoot
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:52 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 pm
MN 1
I recommend VBBs translation of MN 1: https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/bodhi
Pondera wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 pm
Buddha teaches to “direct” and “incline” thoughts [in 1st jhana].
The above is merely a translation. Many monks (Buddhadasa, Brahm, Sujato, etc) disagree with the above.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 pm
Furthermore, the Buddha says:
If the Buddha really said this, why is it is so few suttas?
Pondera wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 pm
Is the earth kasina, for example, the “comprehension” of earth which the Buddha refers to in MN 1?
Who knows? It could merely be the earth element as described in MN 62.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 pm
And if the kasina is indeed “everywhere” then what does it mean to enter & remain there? Or is kasina comprehension simply another perversion about the object?
I doubt the earth kasina is related to jhana. Jhana is said to have five factors; which do not include the earth kasina.
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Zom » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:15 pm

How does one “permeate and suffuse” ones body with the joy and pleasure of that state if it is merely a state of perception? In other words, does the earth element itself come into contact with the body during jhana?
Body is permeated with joy - as it is - this has nothing to do with perception. If you want, you can notice that with perception, or may ignore. Kasina (totality) is a perception shift. What you "see" - is "earth" - everywhere, below, above, etc, as sutta says. What is "earth" - well, probably the element of solidity. Probably you see this solidity everywhere, when you "are in" this state. If you want, you can make another shift, and see "water" everywhere. Or fire... or (hm) color .)

By the way, space kasina and mind kasina, according to suttas again, are 1st and 2nd arupa-jhanas respectively (sphere of Infinite Space / Consciousness). Just synonyms.

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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Pondera » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:54 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:52 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 pm
MN 1
I recommend VBBs translation of MN 1: https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/bodhi
Pondera wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 pm
Buddha teaches to “direct” and “incline” thoughts [in 1st jhana].
The above is merely a translation. Many monks (Buddhadasa, Brahm, Sujato, etc) disagree with the above.
In that case the whole tipitaka is merely a translation and many monks disagree with it :shrug:
Pondera wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 pm
Furthermore, the Buddha says:
If the Buddha really said this, why is it is so few suttas?
Likely in order to cause you confusion and doubt 2500 years later. Are you saying that the Buddha didn’t teach kasinas? AN 10.29 Kosala Sutta is another example where the Buddha describes totalities.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 pm
Is the earth kasina, for example, the “comprehension” of earth which the Buddha refers to in MN 1?
Who knows? It could merely be the earth element as described in MN 62.
... earth kasina = everywhere = not just parts of the body
Pondera wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 pm
And if the kasina is indeed “everywhere” then what does it mean to enter & remain there? Or is kasina comprehension simply another perversion about the object?
I doubt the earth kasina is related to jhana. Jhana is said to have five factors; which do not include the earth kasina.
It is said certain Gods feed on Joy and that those who practice jhana are reborn in these realms. Do you also doubt that the same substrate these Gods subsist on is involved in jhana.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Pondera
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Pondera » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:11 pm

Zom wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:15 pm
How does one “permeate and suffuse” ones body with the joy and pleasure of that state if it is merely a state of perception? In other words, does the earth element itself come into contact with the body during jhana?
Body is permeated with joy - as it is - this has nothing to do with perception. If you want, you can notice that with perception, or may ignore. Kasina (totality) is a perception shift. What you "see" - is "earth" - everywhere, below, above, etc, as sutta says. What is "earth" - well, probably the element of solidity. Probably you see this solidity everywhere, when you "are in" this state. If you want, you can make another shift, and see "water" everywhere. Or fire... or (hm) color .)

By the way, space kasina and mind kasina, according to suttas again, are 1st and 2nd arupa-jhanas respectively (sphere of Infinite Space / Consciousness). Just synonyms.
Thank you for your reply. I have indeed noticed the space and mind totalities as the 1st and 2nd arupa jhanas respectively. I would like to know what the basis for the rupa jhanas is. The name implies form. I am inclined therefore to believe it is the four great elements - but a strait answer in the suttas is elusive. There is room for interpretation.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

SavakaNik
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by SavakaNik » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:34 pm

Enters means the 5 hindrances have been suppressed at the arising of the 5 Jhana factors, remains means one sustains his concentration in doing so.

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Pondera
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Pondera » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:08 am

SavakaNik wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:34 pm
Enters means the 5 hindrances have been suppressed at the arising of the 5 Jhana factors, remains means one sustains his concentration in doing so.
Not according to Leigh Brasington. See here:

http://www.leighb.com/jhana_4factors.htm
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

chownah
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by chownah » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:26 am

I think that "enters" refers to access concentration which is often just momentary.... and "remains" means that the concentration was not just a momentary mind event but that it was sustained and developed.
chownah

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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Zom » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:19 pm

I am inclined therefore to believe it is the four great elements - but a strait answer in the suttas is elusive. There is room for interpretation.
Without a doubt, form is something made up from 4 mahabhutas - and suttas say that directly (for example in MN 28 if I'm not mistaken). Forms, again, can be different, as suttas say - sublime, gross, far, near, etc... In jhanas one sees (or - can see) sublime forms which human eye cannot perceive. For example, deities, as one sutta from Anguttara says. From MN 128 we also know that one practising deep samashi (probably of rupa-jhanic level) can shift from perception of light onto perception of forms and back, thus "developing" these perceptions, such skill and samadhi as it is.

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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:47 pm

Pondera wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:54 pm
In that case the whole tipitaka is merely a translation and many monks disagree with it
Its a matter of what occurs in real jhana. Each of the monks I mentioned have said "vittaka and vicara" in respect to jhana don't have their ordinary meaning.
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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Pondera » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:13 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:47 pm
Pondera wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:54 pm
In that case the whole tipitaka is merely a translation and many monks disagree with it
Its a matter of what occurs in real jhana. Each of the monks I mentioned have said "vittaka and vicara" in respect to jhana don't have their ordinary meaning.
Curiosity beckons me to ask what the out-of-the-ordinary meaning is, in this case?
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Pondera » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:14 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:19 pm
I am inclined therefore to believe it is the four great elements - but a strait answer in the suttas is elusive. There is room for interpretation.
Without a doubt, form is something made up from 4 mahabhutas - and suttas say that directly (for example in MN 28 if I'm not mistaken). Forms, again, can be different, as suttas say - sublime, gross, far, near, etc... In jhanas one sees (or - can see) sublime forms which human eye cannot perceive. For example, deities, as one sutta from Anguttara says. From MN 128 we also know that one practising deep samashi (probably of rupa-jhanic level) can shift from perception of light onto perception of forms and back, thus "developing" these perceptions, such skill and samadhi as it is.
[39][pts][wp] In the case of the first case, Beggars, there comes a time, after a long long time, but sooner or later, when this old world-system begins to pass away. At this time, Beggars, beings are, for the most part, reborn in the Abhassara Realm. And there they live made of mind, feeding on Friendly vibrations, radiating light, traversing the air, uttering cries of joy — a truly glorious life. And there they remain for a long long time. DN 1
Their sustanence is not without cause and there is a condition for their joy. Whatever that substrate might be - that is the point of contact for a jhana practitioner who has developed joy and tranquility, IMO.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Re: “Enters & Remains”

Post by Zom » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:42 pm

As for these deities, I think they have the same cause for joy as jhanic practitioner - that is, generally, clean mind. Again, as Buddha said in Anguttara, mind on its own is bright and luminous, however, it is clouded with defilements.

Obhassa (luminosity) in mind, deities, and jhanas has one and same nature.

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