enlightening by hearing the dhamma

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TRobinson465
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enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:57 am

Hi there, so from my understanding you need to meditate and purify your mind of clinging and whatnot to attain enlightenment. Why, then, are there stories of people attaining enlightenment just hearing the Buddha speak? I've always been curious about this. Your inputs are much appreciated.

Thanks, :anjali:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Pondera
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Re: enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by Pondera » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:56 am

The Buddha radiates non-clinging, non-attachment. It is the nature of anyone who stands or sits in his presence to be overwhelmed by that radiance.

The impute of his teaching is also relevant. He radiates non-attachment and preaches the same thing. So physical presence and intellectual understanding open up the Dhamma eye.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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DooDoot
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Re: enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:45 am

The stories seem to say those minds were released from clinging when hearing the Buddha's words about non-clinging. In other words, those minds appeared to follow the Buddha's instructions rather than worship the Buddha as a god or person.
Listening without clinging wrote:This the Blessed One said. Pleased, the group of five monks were delighted with the exposition of the Blessed One; moreover, as this exposition was being spoken, the minds of the group of five monks were freed of defilements, without attachment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .mend.html
Listening with clinging wrote:For a long time, Lord, I have wanted to come and set eyes on the Blessed One, but I had not the strength in this body to come and see the Blessed One."

"Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

SarathW
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Re: enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by SarathW » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:50 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:57 am
Hi there, so from my understanding you need to meditate and purify your mind of clinging and whatnot to attain enlightenment. Why, then, are there stories of people attaining enlightenment just hearing the Buddha speak? I've always been curious about this. Your inputs are much appreciated.

Thanks, :anjali:
Perhaps because they have already followed the path except for the right view.
It is easier to push someone standing on the cliff rather than a person who has to be dragged to the cliff.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

auto
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Re: enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by auto » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:32 pm

some quotes

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
"As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
"As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
"As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations.
"These are four types of individuals to be found existing in the world."
its not just by hearing

santa100
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Re: enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by santa100 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:47 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:Hi there, so from my understanding you need to meditate and purify your mind of clinging and whatnot to attain enlightenment. Why, then, are there stories of people attaining enlightenment just hearing the Buddha speak? I've always been curious about this. Your inputs are much appreciated.
They probably have already been cultivating the Path since many lives before, just like it doesn't take much time and effort to train music or math prodigies for them to become superstars in their own fields.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:51 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:50 am
Perhaps because they have already followed the path except for the right view.
It is easier to push someone standing on the cliff rather than a person who has to be dragged to the cliff.
If a monk puts the dhamma into practice his mind will be approaching the metaphorical cliff. It might be enough to listen to a great Master like the Buddha to push the monk into nibbana.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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cappuccino
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Re: enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:25 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:57 am
Why, then, are there stories of people attaining enlightenment just hearing the Buddha speak?
Reading, I find myself glossing over the important instructions.

Missing something…

auto
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Re: enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by auto » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:30 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five?

"One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. One's mind grows serene.
"These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma."

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salayatananirodha
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Re: enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by salayatananirodha » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:04 am

I guess hearing what he said and as a result of that, combined with their intelligence, wise attention arises in them
Like a tree that's been chopped up and just needs a push. In order to fall over into fruition we need to get chopping
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

pegembara
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Re: enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by pegembara » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:33 am

Their minds were close to liberation and only needed a little push to send them over.

Examples
"Now, Aggivessana, this body — endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion — should be envisioned as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. In one who envisions the body as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self, any desire for the body, attraction to the body, following after the body is abandoned.

"A pleasant feeling is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing.

Now at that time Ven. Sariputta was sitting[2] behind the Blessed One, fanning him. The thought occurred to him, "Indeed, it seems that the Blessed One speaks to us of the abandoning of each of these mental qualities through direct knowledge.[3] Indeed, it seems that the One Well-gone speaks to us of the relinquishing of each of these mental qualities through direct knowledge."[4] As Ven. Sariputta was reflecting thus, his mind was released from fermentations through not-clinging. While in LongNails the wanderer there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

Now through this brief Dhamma teaching of the Lord the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was immediately freed from the taints without grasping.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html

Someone showed me a quote by Oscar Wilde that is so dhammic.
“To become a spectator of one's own life is to escape the suffering of life.”

― Oscar Wilde
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

TRobinson465
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Re: enlightening by hearing the dhamma

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:49 am

A very interesting diversity of opinions. Thank you all. I think pretty much all of the above statements would be reasonable explanations for this phenomonon.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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