Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:35 pm

DNS wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:44 pm
TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:34 pm
Middle way guys. Just because taking kamma to an extreme to the point where u are inactive doesnt mean u throw out the whole thing. The key is issue is "everything" is caused by kamma is a wrong view.
:thumbsup: Yes, I agree.

"Everything" is caused by kamma -- wrong view.
"Nothing" is caused by kamma -- also wrong view.

Correct view: some by kamma, some by the other niyamas, weather, biology, etc.
And what about our responses to those other things that are the result of the working of the other niyamas? Might they be entirely derived from past kamma? The falling TV set is probably a bad example, as it leaves little time for a meaningful reaction, so I'll take Doodoot's inspired example of a pimple on the backside. The pimple itself is probably due to some biological niyama, but our response to it ("Dammit, now I can't wear my thong!", or "Such is the nature of this impermanent suffering body...") is entirely the result of our previous kamma. Plausible, or ruled out by a sutta somewhere?

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by StormBorn » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:53 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:05 am
DNS wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:42 pm
But it's not just in MN 135 as others have noted, see also RobertK's posts
They sound like later texts. I am not denying to past-life frenzy obviously become very popular; probably under King Ashoka.

:smile:
Oh dear DooDoot, :smile:

EBT wise, it’s awfully at stake to say MN 135 is late since it has 17 parallels spread through various ancient schools. And it’s content stands firm against basic teachings.

Now, if you say MN 111 is late, that’s totally fine since “0” parallels and the content fails horribly against multiple points of Dhamma.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by Ruud » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:03 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:35 pm
And what about our responses to those other things that are the result of the working of the other niyamas? Might they be entirely derived from past kamma?
I think they wouldn’t be entirely derived from past kamma, since that would rule out volition, but the question goes in the same direction as my remarks earlier in this thread so I curious about responses too.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32852&start=45#p488341
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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DNS
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DNS » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:08 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:35 pm
DNS wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:44 pm
TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:34 pm
Middle way guys. Just because taking kamma to an extreme to the point where u are inactive doesnt mean u throw out the whole thing. The key is issue is "everything" is caused by kamma is a wrong view.
:thumbsup: Yes, I agree.

"Everything" is caused by kamma -- wrong view.
"Nothing" is caused by kamma -- also wrong view.

Correct view: some by kamma, some by the other niyamas, weather, biology, etc.
And what about our responses to those other things that are the result of the working of the other niyamas? Might they be entirely derived from past kamma? The falling TV set is probably a bad example, as it leaves little time for a meaningful reaction, so I'll take Doodoot's inspired example of a pimple on the backside. The pimple itself is probably due to some biological niyama, but our response to it ("Dammit, now I can't wear my thong!", or "Such is the nature of this impermanent suffering body...") is entirely the result of our previous kamma. Plausible, or ruled out by a sutta somewhere?
Yes, I suppose that is possible. And there may be some overlaps of some of the niyamas.

To use the pimple example, it may be from:

bãja niyàma (biology): a genetic pre-disposition for acne
citta niyàma (psychology): stress
kamma niyàma (kamma): you saw some doughnuts, they looked and smelled great, cravings set in, you weren't hungry, but due to cravings, you indulged anyway; then a pimple came

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Sam Vara
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:58 pm

DNS wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:08 pm


Yes, I suppose that is possible. And there may be some overlaps of some of the niyamas.

To use the pimple example, it may be from:

bãja niyàma (biology): a genetic pre-disposition for acne
citta niyàma (psychology): stress
kamma niyàma (kamma): you saw some doughnuts, they looked and smelled great, cravings set in, you weren't hungry, but due to cravings, you indulged anyway; then a pimple came
One really important question about the "overlaps" is whether kamma-niyama overlaps with others in the sense that it is the cause behind the other niyamas. As Richard Gombrich points out (and Zom alludes to here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32852&start=60#p488372) the effects of kamma, if they exist at all, would appear to us to be part of a normal physical process involving proximate causes in this world.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by form » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:42 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:54 am
Greetings diamind,

Such questions would be best put to Bhikkhu Sujato over at Sutta Central, but since you ask...
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:46 am
Can anyone give the history of Bhante sujato
He was in an indie band once.
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:46 am
...and what he represents in the buddhist world?
A sutta / "Early Buddhism" worldview, in stark contrast to a commentarial Theravada world-view.

Plus, particularly when it comes to matters of Vinaya, there's some feminist overlays applied, as discussed here.
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:46 am
Seems like he teaches out of the bswa but why wouldn't ajahn Brahm pull him up on his radical view of kamma? Im listening to a talk from Ajahn Brahm now and its 100% traditional view, its a complete contradiction to the way sujato presents kamma.
Frankly, I have more problem with Ajahn Brahm's interpretations of kamma than I do Bhikkhu Sujato's.
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:46 am
So has Bhante Sujato invented this veiw by himself?
Did Bhikkhu Sujato invent the suttas by himself?

:shrug:

I don't care to speculate on the remainder of your questions, given the disrespect inherent within the questions.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I enjoyed these replies.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by Polar Bear » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:43 pm

I think the Buddha would argue against the view that our decisions now are determined by what was done in the past. And he’d argue against such a view not by providing some metaphysical argument, but by showing that such a view is unhelpful to hold for someone who wants to be virtuous, self controlled, and to end suffering. I think the Buddha thought that to put in the work to become liberated, one needs to see oneself as having a high degree of autonomy, or free will, and to assume a very high degree of personal responsibility.
(1) “Bhikkhus, I approached those ascetics and brahmins who hold such a doctrine and view as this: ‘Whatever this person experiences—whether pleasure, pain, or neither-pain-nor-pleasure—all that is caused by past deeds,’ and I said to them: ‘Is it true that you venerable ones hold such a doctrine and view?’ When I ask them this, they affirm it. Then I say to them: ‘In such a case, it is due to past deeds that you might destroy life, take what is not given, indulge in sexual activity, speak falsehood, utter divisive speech, speak harshly, indulge in idle chatter; that you might be full of longing, have a mind of ill will, and hold wrong view.’

“Those who fall back on past deeds as the essential truth have no desire to do what should be done and to avoid doing what should not be done, nor do they make an effort in this respect. Since they do not apprehend as true and valid anything that should be done or should not be done, they are muddle-minded, they do not guard themselves, and even the personal designation ‘ascetic’ could not be legitimately applied to them. This was my first legitimate refutation of those ascetics and brahmins who hold such a doctrine and view.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/bodhi
:anjali:
Last edited by Polar Bear on Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

form
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by form » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:50 pm

Karma could be just tendencies that increase the probabilities of certain occurance depending on its "weight" cause by the degree of the past mental action. The Buddha is teaching about the escape from karma, in other words no more rebirth.

So what is bhante sujato talking about?

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:55 am

diamind wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:28 pm
So why do we have this thing called EBT now? Surely scholars have been doing the same research for centuries.

Well, not really. The methods employed in modern academic scholarship of the early Buddhist texts are adapted from those used in biblical "Higher Criticism". This is something that didn't get started until the European Enlightenment(s) and has nothing remotely like it in traditional/monastic Buddhist scholarship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_criticism

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:00 am

Greetings,

And further to venerable Dhammanando's point above, I'm sure those who were committed first and foremost to the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka had more than enough to contend with, simply in memorizing, reciting and transmitting the suttas.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by James Tan » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:38 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:55 am
diamind wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:28 pm
So why do we have this thing called EBT now? Surely scholars have been doing the same research for centuries.

Well, not really. The methods employed in modern academic scholarship of the early Buddhist texts are adapted from those used in biblical "Higher Criticism". This is something that didn't get started until the European Enlightenment(s) and has nothing remotely like it in traditional/monastic Buddhist scholarship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_criticism
Is there such a thing as European Enlightenment ?
:reading:

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by chownah » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:48 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:38 am
Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:55 am
diamind wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:28 pm
So why do we have this thing called EBT now? Surely scholars have been doing the same research for centuries.

Well, not really. The methods employed in modern academic scholarship of the early Buddhist texts are adapted from those used in biblical "Higher Criticism". This is something that didn't get started until the European Enlightenment(s) and has nothing remotely like it in traditional/monastic Buddhist scholarship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_criticism
Is there such a thing as European Enlightenment ?
"Age of Enlightenment"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment
chownah

diamind
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:10 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:00 am
Greetings,

And further to venerable Dhammanando's point above, I'm sure those who were committed first and foremost to the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka had more than enough to contend with, simply in memorizing, reciting and transmitting the suttas.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Theres one thing that Bhante Sujatos students will never forget, "Kamma isnt the cause of everything" You just dont forget something like that, so its very dubious to say that the elders forgot to transmit it correctly, specially when they have to memorise those very verses.
Its something a later commentator would 100% find and definitely write about in some commentary. There must be something the pre-dates modern higher criticism. Maybe something in Burmese or thai.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by Bundokji » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:13 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:55 am
Well, not really. The methods employed in modern academic scholarship of the early Buddhist texts are adapted from those used in biblical "Higher Criticism". This is something that didn't get started until the European Enlightenment(s) and has nothing remotely like it in traditional/monastic Buddhist scholarship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_criticism
This might be true when it comes to Buddhist scholarship (i don't know), but do you think the Buddha took context into consideration when he taught the dhamma?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:11 am

Greetings Diamind,
diamind wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:10 am
Theres one thing that Bhante Sujatos students will never forget, "Kamma isnt the cause of everything" You just dont forget something like that...
Well, since that's literally what the suttas say, surely that's a good thing.

Well said, Bhikkhu Sujato!

:anjali:

As such, I'm not quite sure why you want to go on quibbling about it...?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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