Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

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James Tan
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by James Tan » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:38 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:35 am
The burden of proof should be on Bhante Sujato.
The burden of proof falls on you because Sujato knows the suttas.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:35 am
Although i do agree with you that i shouldnt criticize him, as i am very careful about criticizing ordained monks.
The above view appears opposite to that of the Buddha. The Buddha encouraged laypeople point out any faults in monks.
It applies the burden of proof falls on everyone .

Can you provide text that shows Buddha encouraged layperson point out monks fault ?
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:11 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:48 am
MN 135 is indeed one i would quote, but since u can just pick and choose which are valid theres no point.
There are many suttas that make MN 135 questionable, such as AN 3.61, for starters. Also, we do not know whether the "wealth", "health", etc, referred to in MN 135 is mental or physical because there are suttas that use words "wealth", "health", etc, in only non-physical ways. I think its pointless to hold a dogmatic position on this.

diamind
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:21 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:38 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:35 am
The burden of proof should be on Bhante Sujato.
The burden of proof falls on you because Sujato knows the suttas.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:35 am
Although i do agree with you that i shouldnt criticize him, as i am very careful about criticizing ordained monks.
The above view appears opposite to that of the Buddha. The Buddha encouraged laypeople point out any faults in monks.
In Sujato's talk he said its ok to criticize monks.

TRobinson465
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:24 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:11 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:48 am
MN 135 is indeed one i would quote, but since u can just pick and choose which are valid theres no point.
There are many suttas that make MN 135 questionable, such as AN 3.61, for starters. Also, we do not know whether the "wealth", "health", etc, referred to in MN 135 is mental or physical because there are suttas that use words "wealth", "health", etc, in only non-physical ways. I think its pointless to hold a dogmatic position on this.
I would not say AN 3.61 contradicts this. the key here is the word "everything".
‘Everything this individual experiences—pleasurable, painful, or neutral—is because of past deeds.’
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:38 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:35 am
Although i do agree with you that i shouldnt criticize him, as i am very careful about criticizing ordained monks.
The above view appears opposite to that of the Buddha. The Buddha encouraged laypeople point out any faults in monks.
Even if that was true, I dont care. I expressed why I try to avoid such criticism on this thread here. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32686

I just want to be careful as an unenlightened being still trapped in samsara.

Although as James pointed out, i am curious what text you are referring to that supports this idea that the Buddha encouraged such behavior.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

diamind
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:46 am

I'm very new to this forum and all these different teachers and who they are in the Buddhist world. I have no idea who sujato is or who he represents or any history about him. I only came across sutta central a few weeks ago.
Im getting the feeling this topic is an old debated point

Can anyone give the history of Bhante sujato and what he represents in the buddhist world? and his relationship with other teachers? Seems like he teaches out of the bswa but why wouldn't ajahn Brahm pull him up on his radical view of kamma? Im listening to a talk from Ajahn Brahm now and its 100% traditional view, its a complete contradiction to the way sujato presents kamma.
So has Bhante Sujato invented this veiw by himself? Seems like Ajahn Brahmali (whoever he is) also shares the same view as Bhante Sujato because they are teaching the workshop together. Is it just Sujato and Bahmali against the world? Has one indoctrinated the other? Like what percentage of Buddhist actually believe his presentation? Wheres it all coming from?

TRobinson465
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:07 am

I cant call myself an expert, but from my understanding Bhante Sujato's view is at odds with most Buddhists. Bhante Sujato view on kamma is similar to that found commonly in the views of modern western secular Buddhists (who tend to think of traditional kamma view, heaven and hell, hungry ghosts, king yama and whatnot as Asian superstitions that were inserted into the "real" Buddhism later on, thus my comment earlier), so its not like he made it up out of nowhere. I am not familiar with his credentials as a Buddhist teacher other than his work setting up suttacentral and translating a large portion of the texts.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

Ruud
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by Ruud » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:48 am

If our actions and especially our intentions behind them are our kamma (AN6.63), but meanwhile it can not be said that everything is caused by kamma (AN3.61, SN36.21), and that kamma can’t be escaped, but diluted at most (AN3.100), wouldn’t it be possible that not the falling of the TV itself is the result of our kamma, but our response to it (that then again guides our next actions, i.e. kamma).

A TV falls from a building and almost hits us. If our actions in the past have been based on anger, big chance is we will respond angry now too. We go upstairs and tell the person that dropped it what we think of him, with all negative results and mindstates that go with it.

A TV falls from a building and almost hits us. If our actions and intentions in the past have been mostly wholesome, we might be quite shaken by what just happened, but we will be mostly happy it didn’t actually hit us. We appreciate life more because we survived something that could have gone much worse, with all positive results and mindstates that go with that.
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:54 am

Greetings diamind,

Such questions would be best put to Bhikkhu Sujato over at Sutta Central, but since you ask...
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:46 am
Can anyone give the history of Bhante sujato
He was in an indie band once.
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:46 am
...and what he represents in the buddhist world?
A sutta / "Early Buddhism" worldview, in stark contrast to a commentarial Theravada world-view.

Plus, particularly when it comes to matters of Vinaya, there's some feminist overlays applied, as discussed here.
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:46 am
Seems like he teaches out of the bswa but why wouldn't ajahn Brahm pull him up on his radical view of kamma? Im listening to a talk from Ajahn Brahm now and its 100% traditional view, its a complete contradiction to the way sujato presents kamma.
Frankly, I have more problem with Ajahn Brahm's interpretations of kamma than I do Bhikkhu Sujato's.
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:46 am
So has Bhante Sujato invented this veiw by himself?
Did Bhikkhu Sujato invent the suttas by himself?

:shrug:

I don't care to speculate on the remainder of your questions, given the disrespect inherent within the questions.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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DooDoot
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:20 am

diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:21 am
In Sujato's talk he said its ok to criticize monks.
I have few doubts that Sujato understands Dhamma very well but most Theravada monks (including Sujato) engage in social (political) correctness in respect to teaching Buddhism. Sometimes they will teach a certain way; other times another way. The idea of "two types of teaching" has always existed in Buddhism.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:24 am
I just want to be careful as an unenlightened being still trapped in samsara.
Respectfully, my view is ideas about a "self" doing past actions that account for a pimple on the face or anus or a TV falling on the head won't help abandoning "self" that is required to exist samsara.
Warned by the deva messengers,
those youths who are heedless
grieve for a long, long time —
people entering a lower state.
But those here who are good,
people of integrity,
when warned by the deva messengers
aren't heedless
of the noble Dhamma — ever.
Seeing danger in clinging,
in the coming-into-play
of birth & death,
they are released from lack of clinging,
in the ending
of birth & death.
They, happy, arriving at safety,
fully unbound in the here-&-now,
having gone beyond
all animosity & danger
have escaped
all suffering & stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

diamind
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:20 am
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:21 am
In Sujato's talk he said its ok to criticize monks.
I have few doubts that Sujato understands the True Dhamma very well but most Theravada monks (including Sujato) engage in social political correctness in respect to teaching Buddhism. Sometimes they will teach a certain way; other times another way. The idea of "two types of teaching" has always existed in Buddhism.
This I can understand, just listening to some of the questions he faces from the students, it doesn't take much to upset them i.e hinting an animal rebirth is lower, I cant imagine if Sujato told them getting abused as a child is all their own fault.
Anyway Im getting a clearer picture of whats going on with his teaching style.

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DooDoot
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:23 am

diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:38 am
This I can understand, just listening to some of the questions he faces from the students, it doesn't take much to upset them i.e hinting an animal rebirth is lower, I cant imagine if Sujato told them getting abused as a child is all their own fault.
Yes, but it is not their own fault. You seem to be on a perilous path here, saying that Buddhism teaches child abuse is due to past life kamma. There is no real evidence for such ideas. I already posted from the Dhammapada that there are "innocent people" in Buddhism. Not only are such ideas about past life kamma cruel; they are unsubstantiated. Also, there is 0% evidence the Buddha taught MN 135 to the Baby Brahmin Boy. The suttas generally talk about how knowable present kamma influences the future (rather than how unknowable past kamma influences the present). AN 3.61 is quite clear that such past kamma ideas leave a person bewildered and unprotected.

diamind
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:23 am
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:38 am
This I can understand, just listening to some of the questions he faces from the students, it doesn't take much to upset them i.e hinting an animal rebirth is lower, I cant imagine if Sujato told them getting abused as a child is all their own fault.
Yes, but it is not their own fault. You seem to be on a perilous path here, saying that Buddhism teaches child abuse is due to past life kamma. There is no real evidence for such ideas. I already posted from the Dhammapada that there are "innocent people" in Buddhism. Not only are such ideas about past life kamma cruel; they are unsubstantiated. Also, there is 0% evidence the Buddha taught MN 135 to the Baby Brahmin Boy. The suttas generally talk about how knowable present kamma influences the future (rather than how unknowable past kamma influences the present). AN 3.61 is quite clear that such past kamma ideas leave a person bewildered and unprotected.
Then what about the story of buddha being hit with a rock?

diamind
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:56 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:23 am
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:38 am
This I can understand, just listening to some of the questions he faces from the students, it doesn't take much to upset them i.e hinting an animal rebirth is lower, I cant imagine if Sujato told them getting abused as a child is all their own fault.
Yes, but it is not their own fault. You seem to be on a perilous path here, saying that Buddhism teaches child abuse is due to past life kamma. There is no real evidence for such ideas. I already posted from the Dhammapada that there are "innocent people" in Buddhism. Not only are such ideas about past life kamma cruel; they are unsubstantiated. Also, there is 0% evidence the Buddha taught MN 135 to the Baby Brahmin Boy. The suttas generally talk about how knowable present kamma influences the future (rather than how unknowable past kamma influences the present). AN 3.61 is quite clear that such past kamma ideas leave a person bewildered and unprotected.
Did you come to your own conclusion about the different presentation on karma? OR where you influenced by a book or teacher? Where is it coming from because its totally counterintuitive

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robertk
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by robertk » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:28 pm

more from Dhammapada Commentary (edited by Bhikkhu Pesala)

Nobody Can Escape the Effects of Kamma
12. Na antalikkhe na samuddamajjhe, na pabbatānaṃ vivaraṃ pavissa
Na vijjatī1 so jagatippadeso, yatthaṭṭhito mucceyya pāpakammā.127
12. Not in the s�, nor in mid-ocean, nor in a mountain cave, is found
that place on earth where abiding one may escape �om (the
consequences) of one’s evil deed.

Three Stories of Travellers
Three groups of monks came to visit the Buddha. On their way, one group
saw a crow fly into a burning bundle of thatch, and get burnt to death.
A second group came by ship. When the ship was becalmed mid-ocean for
several days, lots were drawn and the captain’s beautiful young wife drew the
short s�aw three times in succession. The captain ordered her jewels to be
removed and to cast her overboard with a bag of ballast tied to her neck, so
that he wouldn’t have to hear her screams as she s�uggled. Sharks and turtles
came at once, and consumed her body.
The third group of seven monks stayed in a cave overnight, but were �apped
by a fallen boulder. They suffered severe hunger and thirst for seven days until
the boulder could be removed. The �avellers asked the Buddha the reason for
these s�ange events, so he told these stories of the past:
Burning an Ox
The Buddha related how that crow, as a farmer in a previous birth, being
unable to tame an ox, had wrapped it’s body in s�aw and burnt it to death.
Drowning a Dog
A dog, who had been her husband in a previous life, followed a woman
everywhere. Some youths teased her, and she drove the dog away with sticks
and stones, but it kept following her. She filled a vessel with sand, tied it with
a rope to the dog’s neck and drowned the dog in a pool.
Imprisoning an Iguana
The seven monks, born as cowherds in a previous life, had imprisoned an
iguana in an anthill. They forgot about it for seven days, but released it and let
it go when they remembered. They escaped falling into hell, but suffered �om
starvation for seven days in each of fourteen successive lives.
The Buddha added that no one is exempt �om the consequences of his or
her past evil deeds.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:17 pm

diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:56 am
Where is it coming from because its totally counterintuitive
Just more personal opinions above, ignoring the suttas. What does "counterintuitive" supposed to mean?

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