Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
TRobinson465
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:07 am
Greetings TRobinson465,
If you think bhante sujato is teaching the "true" kamma without direct knowledge then at best you can say he got this using scriptural interpretation, which was undoubtedly influenced by his anti-"asian superstition" western background or something, since he clearly didnt get it from any existing traditions.
What if he got it from the Sutta Pitaka, didn't extrapolate beyond what he read, and didn't unquestioningly take on board subsequent additions and revisions?

:shrug:

Must this necessarily entail all the nefarious motives you ascribe to him?

:shrug:
Also, this can apply to other "true" interpretations of certain Buddhist teachings also, like the ever controversial anatta. yet anytime someone points out alternative interpretations ppl on this forum, including you Paul, jump in and say anything alternative to the mainstream is wrong. Why apply this open minded idea of "true dhamma not maintained by tradition" only to this scenario here?
I believe in conformity to the Suttas. If that's regarded as "alternative" or "mainstream" on any particular subject, then so be it.

But as I am not the subject of discussion here...

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Conformity with the suttas is still open ended. the suttas are just words on a paper until someone reads and interprets it. People used the exact same bible verses to justify thier opposing points of view on slavery. The United States has 9 Judges who all interpret the exact same document (the US constitution) vastly differently. Even without extrapolating the suttas, i would arrive at a different conclustion than bhante sujato on kamma. for instance the angulimali passage Robert posted or the passage on the slaughter of the Sakyas (which happened despite mahamoggallanas attempts to save them with psychic powers because kamma overpowers psychic powers) gives ample support to the contrary of what bhante sujato presents based on how I and many others read those suttas. also, Bhante Sujato extrapolated the suttas by applying it to the scenario of a tv falling on you, which is found nowhere in the Sutta Pitaka.


Also, im not sure if this is intentional or not, but just so you know this thread is appearing on both the Discovering Theravada and General Theravada Discussion subjects.
Last edited by TRobinson465 on Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

diamind
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:21 am

robertk wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:41 am
diamind wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:24 pm
Im just listening to a few talks by Bhante Sujato. It doesn't take long until you encounter his view of karma.
Where is he getting these ideas from? It seems like he really believes his view point but then I think maybe his belief is some what fabricated to try and push his "early buddhism ideology" further. Can anyone shed some light onto this?
So basically his example is, if a TV drops out of a hotel window and you are walking along on the street below minding your own business and the tv lands on your head, this has nothing to do with karma. He also says collective karma's are a myth and birth defects are not created by karma.
If you take his very strict definition of karma and say karma is only a deliberate thought pattern of the present mind, then YES I agree, the example has nothing to do with karma, but then why is the TV hitting you on the head? Sujato doesn't really answer this question.
https://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutt ... .story.htm

Verse 173: The Story of Thera Angulimala

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (173) of this book,
with reference to Thera Angulimala.


{...]
Angulimala's mother looked for her son everywhere in the forest shouting out his name, but
failing to find him she returned home. When the king and his men came to capture Angulimala,
they found him at the monastery of the Buddha. Finding that Angulimala had given up his evil
ways and had become a Bhikkhu, the king and his men went home. During his stay at the
monastery, Angulimala ardently and diligently practised meditation, and within a short time
he attained Arahatship .

Then, one day, while he was on an alms-round, he came to a place where some people were
quarrelling among themselves. As they were throwing stones at one another, some stray
stones hit Thera Angulimala on the head and he was seriously injured
. Yet, he managed to
come back to the Buddha, and the Buddha said to him, "My son Angulimala! You have done
away with evil. Have patience. You are paying in this existence for the deeds you have done.
These deeds would have made you suffer for innumerable years in niraya." Soon afterwards,
Angulimala passed away peacefully; he had realized pari-Nibbana.

Other Bhikkhus asked the Buddha where Angulimala was reborn, and when the Buddha
replied "My son has realized pari-Nibbana", they could hardly believe it. So they asked him,
whether it was possible, that a man who had killed so many people could have realized
pari-Nibbana. To this question, the Buddha replied, "Bhikkhus! Angulimala had done much evil,
because he did not have good friends. But later, he found good friends and through their
help and good advice, he had been steadfast and mindful in his practice of the dhamma.
Therefore, his evil deeds have been overwhelmed by good (i e., Arahatta Magga).

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows.

Verse 173: He who overwhelms with good the evil that he has done lights up this world
(with the light of Magga Insight), as does the moon freed from clouds.

Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A.,
Burma Pitaka Association, Rangoon, Burma 1986.

So this is comfirming radom falling objects come about from past deeds, from past karma? Thats how I read it. But wouldnt sujato say, but this is not an Early Buddhist Sutta?
Isnt there also a story of the Buddha himself being struck by a rock?

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:25 am

diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:21 am
robertk wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:41 am
diamind wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:24 pm
Im just listening to a few talks by Bhante Sujato. It doesn't take long until you encounter his view of karma.
Where is he getting these ideas from? It seems like he really believes his view point but then I think maybe his belief is some what fabricated to try and push his "early buddhism ideology" further. Can anyone shed some light onto this?
So basically his example is, if a TV drops out of a hotel window and you are walking along on the street below minding your own business and the tv lands on your head, this has nothing to do with karma. He also says collective karma's are a myth and birth defects are not created by karma.
If you take his very strict definition of karma and say karma is only a deliberate thought pattern of the present mind, then YES I agree, the example has nothing to do with karma, but then why is the TV hitting you on the head? Sujato doesn't really answer this question.
https://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutt ... .story.htm

Verse 173: The Story of Thera Angulimala

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (173) of this book,
with reference to Thera Angulimala.


{...]
Angulimala's mother looked for her son everywhere in the forest shouting out his name, but
failing to find him she returned home. When the king and his men came to capture Angulimala,
they found him at the monastery of the Buddha. Finding that Angulimala had given up his evil
ways and had become a Bhikkhu, the king and his men went home. During his stay at the
monastery, Angulimala ardently and diligently practised meditation, and within a short time
he attained Arahatship .

Then, one day, while he was on an alms-round, he came to a place where some people were
quarrelling among themselves. As they were throwing stones at one another, some stray
stones hit Thera Angulimala on the head and he was seriously injured
. Yet, he managed to
come back to the Buddha, and the Buddha said to him, "My son Angulimala! You have done
away with evil. Have patience. You are paying in this existence for the deeds you have done.
These deeds would have made you suffer for innumerable years in niraya." Soon afterwards,
Angulimala passed away peacefully; he had realized pari-Nibbana.

Other Bhikkhus asked the Buddha where Angulimala was reborn, and when the Buddha
replied "My son has realized pari-Nibbana", they could hardly believe it. So they asked him,
whether it was possible, that a man who had killed so many people could have realized
pari-Nibbana. To this question, the Buddha replied, "Bhikkhus! Angulimala had done much evil,
because he did not have good friends. But later, he found good friends and through their
help and good advice, he had been steadfast and mindful in his practice of the dhamma.
Therefore, his evil deeds have been overwhelmed by good (i e., Arahatta Magga).

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows.

Verse 173: He who overwhelms with good the evil that he has done lights up this world
(with the light of Magga Insight), as does the moon freed from clouds.

Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A.,
Burma Pitaka Association, Rangoon, Burma 1986.

So this is comfirming radom falling objects come about from past deeds, from past karma? Thats how I read it. But wouldnt sujato say, but this is not an Early Buddhist Sutta?
Isnt there also a story of the Buddha himself being struck by a rock?
He was struck by a rock by devadatta yes. The Buddha said that was residual kamma from killing his brother or something in some distant past life or something I believe.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:26 am

Greetings TRobinson465,
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:17 am
Conformity with the suttas is still open ended.
Sure, but where has Bhikkhu Sujato faltered in his interpretation of the suttas in this particular matter?

Unless one can find sutta that clearly refutes his exposition, then it might be judicious to be a bit less cavalier in one's criticisms of him.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:17 am
Also, im not sure if this is intentional or not, but just so you know this thread is appearing on both the Discovering Theravada and General Theravada Discussion subjects.
This started in DT and was moved to GT... a redirection marker was left behind at DT to help people find it in GT.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:27 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:00 am
It is the self view does the Kamma.
Not according to SN 12.17:
"Master Gotama, is stress self-made?"

"Don't say that, Kassapa."

"Then is it other-made?"

"Don't say that, Kassapa."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .mend.html
:alien:
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:02 am
In this case i think Bhante Sujato didnt learn this idea from a tradition or Thai teacher, as this POV seems to contradict virtually all Buddhist traditions view of kamma. I think he might just be presenting his own opinion influenced by his secularized, Buddhism in this lifetime, anti-"asian superstition" western background or something.
Sujato's view appears straight from the suttas. Possibly the only sutta supporting an unknowable view about karma is the little baby boy Brahmin student sutta in MN 135. The suttas seem to say from X knowable act comes Y result. The suttas appear to not say unknowable Y result is from X unknowable action (apart from little baby boy Brahmin student sutta).
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:41 am
So we have some scripture backings to sujatos beliefs, thats great, but what would Ajahn Chah say about Karma? or even Ajahn Brahm or Bhikkhu Bodhi. And in fact Ive listened to alot of Bhikkhu bodi and I havent yet found him say anything out of the ordinary.
I found it surprising Sujato would teach about karma similar to my personal view on it. Ajahn Chah would have had a stronger here-&-now position about it (similar to me). Ajahn Brahm or Bhikkhu Bodhi would hold a more "traditional" or "cultural" interpretation.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:26 am

This started in DT and was moved to GT... a redirection marker was left behind at DT to help people find it in GT.

Metta,
Paul. :)
okay cool, i wasnt sure how it worked. just wanted to point that out.
retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:26 am


Unless one can find sutta that clearly refutes his exposition, then it might be judicious to be a bit less cavalier in one's criticisms of him.
I think this is a slippery slope. If that was the case anyone can say anything and unless its clearly refuted somewhere in the suttas its valid. The burden of proof should be on Bhante Sujato. As he is basically extrapolating, since there is no sutta that talks about a tv falling one someones head.

Although i do agree with you that i shouldnt criticize him, as i am very careful about criticizing ordained monks. I actually didnt mean to i was just conveying my thoughts on what he probably did. Although looking back it certainly seems like how i worded it sounds criticizing. So thank you for pointing this out to me, i will try to be more mindful to not criticize as such, even if unintentional through poor word choice. :anjali:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:38 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:35 am
The burden of proof should be on Bhante Sujato.
The burden of proof falls on you because Sujato knows the suttas.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:35 am
Although i do agree with you that i shouldnt criticize him, as i am very careful about criticizing ordained monks.
The above view appears opposite to that of the Buddha. The Buddha encouraged laypeople point out any faults in monks.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:39 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:38 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:35 am
The burden of proof should be on Bhante Sujato.
The burden of proof falls on you because Sujato knows the suttas.
so do other ppl who disagree with him.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:41 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:39 am
so do other ppl who disagree with him.
I didn't notice you posting any suttas quotes to support your ideas about kamma. Sure, you might quote MN 135 but we have discussed this together before. MN 135 (one sutta to baby brahma boy) does not refute the many lofty supramundane suttas supporting BS's point of view.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:48 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:41 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:39 am
so do other ppl who disagree with him.
I didn't notice you posting any suttas quotes to support your ideas about kamma. Sure, you might quote MN 135 but we have discussed this together before. MN 135 (one sutta to baby brahma boy) does not refute the many lofty supramundane suttas supporting BS's point of view.
u just said that Bhante Sujato doesnt need to provide sutta support because he knows them. so do other ppl who disagree with him, i never said i was that person. So the ppl who disagree with bhante Sujato dont need to either by ur logic. This is what i have a problem with. not the bhante sujato's position but the idea that he can say anything and its valid unless theres a clear sutta to refute it. also i said i agreed with the sutta quote Robert put. MN 135 is indeed one i would quote, but since u can just pick and choose which are valid theres no point. I would say the sutta Robert put was more than enough to refute Bhante Sujatos conclusion but you and Paul clearly disagree.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:56 am

diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:21 am



So this is comfirming radom falling objects come about from past deeds, from past karma? Thats how I read it. But wouldnt sujato say, but this is not an Early Buddhist Sutta?
Isnt there also a story of the Buddha himself being struck by a rock?
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:48 am

He was struck by a rock by devadatta yes. The Buddha said that was residual kamma from killing his brother or something in some distant past life or something I believe.
Oh heres the sutta on this one. I remembered correctly, it was indeed killing his brother.

One time eying wealth I murdered
brothers by a second mother.
I put them on a mountain road
and crushed them in an avalanche.

As a result of that karma,
Devadatta threw a boulder
and a splinter off that boulder
then crushed the big toe on my foot
https://suttacentral.net/tha-ap392/en/walters
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:59 am

Greetings TRobinson465,

Are you suggesting one person's kamma can manifest as the kamma (action) of a second person?

If so, who is morally responsible for the second person's deeds?

Side note: As for the Theragatha, I'd be wary of putting it on par with the four nikayas...
Edmund Jayasuriya wrote:According to Rhys Davids, canonical books were the result rather of communistic than of individual effort. Similarly, even in the Thera-Theri Gatha there is internal evidence that reveals the hand of the invisible compiler such as the presence of duplicate names in the text, ascription of identical stanzas to separate theras and the repetition of stanzas.

Moreover, some of the writings now found in the Dhammpada, Thera Gatha and Theri Gatha has been scattered over the Nikayas before they were finally incorporated into the present texts by the learned compilers.

Scholars conclude that the verses collected in the Thera-Theri Gatha were uttered over a period of 300 years, from the end of the sixth century to the middle of of the third century BC.

During these centuries gathas were probably added onto the original stock or underwent alteration. A selection and revision were done at the Third Council in Pataliputta, and it is this version that has come down to us.

Some gathas, of course, suggest that they come to us almost in the form they were uttered, while others reveal the hand of a compiler or literary composer. Mrs. Rhys Davids points out that the verses of Theri Sumedha and Theri Isidasi show unmistakable signs of literary craft. This kind of compilation or revision is to be expected in a body of literature that was passed on mainly by oral tradition. But this should not mean that these utterances were never made by the theras or theris concerned and were the compositions of some others. In fact, nothing can be further from the truth.

The importance and relevance of this body of literature lie not in who uttered them but in the utterances themselves. In the words of Mrs. Rhys Davids: "...these are for the history of human ideas the really precious truths, however legendary or lost the genuine sources may have become". It is in this sense, I believe, that these verses should be read and understood.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by robertk » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:02 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:57 am
The vast majority of unenlightened beings act based on ill will, greed and delusion. If Kamma explains anything apart from the being's inner state (which affects his life's circumstances and others in the long run) then you would find the vast majority of humans either deformed or dead at a very young age.
Indeed.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn in hell.
"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by robertk » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:03 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:48 am
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:41 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:39 am
so do other ppl who disagree with him.
I didn't notice you posting any suttas quotes to support your ideas about kamma. Sure, you might quote MN 135 but we have discussed this together before. MN 135 (one sutta to baby brahma boy) does not refute the many lofty supramundane suttas supporting BS's point of view.
u just said that Bhante Sujato doesnt need to provide sutta support because he knows them. so do other ppl who disagree with him, i never said i was that person. So the ppl who disagree with bhante Sujato dont need to either by ur logic. This is what i have a problem with. not the bhante sujato's position but the idea that he can say anything and its valid unless theres a clear sutta to refute it. also i said i agreed with the sutta quote Robert put. MN 135 is indeed one i would quote, but since u can just pick and choose which are valid theres no point. I would say the sutta Robert put was more than enough to refute Bhante Sujatos conclusion but you and Paul clearly disagree.
Just to note, my example was from the Commentary by Buddhaghosa. :sage:

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:06 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:59 am
Greetings TRobinson465,

Are you suggesting one person's kamma can manifest as the kamma (action) of a second person?

If so, who is morally responsible for the second person's deeds?


Metta,
Paul. :)
Yes. the second person is. because the ppl who killed Mahamoggallana (who had kamma of killing his parents in a past life), ended up going to Avici.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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