Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.
Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:22 am
I think any person that has lots of work to do is not in a position to make the above assessment.
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I think any person that has lots of work to do is not in a position to make the above assessment.
Not me. If I still have lots of work to do just like you or even some teacher, I'd very much appreciate folks to say the naked truth out loud instead of hiding it.
what makes you think that Ven. Sujato is a sekkha?
Numbered Discourses 3.85. A Trainee
Then a mendicant went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:
“Sir, they speak of this person called ‘a trainee’. How is a trainee defined?” “They train, mendicant, that’s why they’re called ‘a trainee’. What is their training? They train in the higher ethics, the higher mind, and the higher wisdom. They train, that’s why they’re called ‘a trainee’”.
“As a trainee trains,
following the straight road,
first they know about ending;
enlightenment follows in the same lifetime.
After that, to that poised one, freed by enlightenment
with the end of the fetters of rebirth,
the knowledge comes:
‘My freedom is unshakable.’”
It looks like Sekkha refers to people in higher training and a putujjhana is nevasekkho nāsekkho puggalo [neither adept nor a learner/trainee].DN33
Three individuals:
Tayo puggalā—
a trainee, an adept, and one who is neither a trainee nor an adept.
sekkho puggalo, asekkho puggalo, nevasekkho nāsekkho puggalo. (36)
Well, I have met and spoken to him a few times. While I certainly do not accord with much of the mission he has chosen nor agree with many of his views, I found him very pleasant, with good skills, with good metta and very open minded. When pressed on the issue of the Analayo and Brahmali vendetta against MN 117, he conceded it was wrong. He no longer disparages MN 117. He was happy for me to live in his monastery, despite conflicting dhamma views. When I first met him when he visited our area, he choose to sleep in the native forest/bush (rather than accept accommodation). He appeared well practised to me. Plus Sutta Central is the best sutta resource ever.
Key points highlighted. Since you seem to have a good experience with him, why don't you contact him to have him correct his translation mistake of DN 31. You actually spotted this error first, credit to you.DooDoot wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:22 am Well, I have met and spoken to him a few times. While I certainly do not accord with much of the mission he has chosen nor agree with many of his views, I found him very pleasant, with good skills, with good metta and very open minded. When pressed on the issue of the Analayo and Brahmali vendetta against MN 117, he conceded it was wrong, which is why he no longer disparages MN 117. He was happy for me to live in his monastery, despite conflicting dhamma views. When I first met him when he visited our area, he choose to sleep in the native forest/bush (rather than accept accommodation). He appeared well practised to me. Plus Sutta Central is the best sutta resource ever.
Lol. If I did that then I would have to also send many very long letters to Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro and all of the other translators.santa100 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:33 am Since you seem to have a good experience with him, why don't you contact him to have him correct his translation mistake of DN 31.
If you wholeheartely believe there're real mistakes, why not? Please do. Sujato's DN 31 mistake is as explicit and blatant as it gets. Bodhi's and Thanissaro's aren't perfect but I haven't seen anything of theirs even close to the absurdity level of Sujato's.DooDoot wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:42 amLol. If I did that then I would have to also send many very long letters to Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro and all of the other translators.santa100 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:33 am Since you seem to have a good experience with him, why don't you contact him to have him correct his translation mistake of DN 31.
Since I cannot even convince you about Dhamma matters, how can I convince them? Buddhism is sectarian. Different monks appear to deliberately make different offerings to the spiritual marketplace.
No he did not. Not in that DN 31 case. By the way, that's flawed logic again. I'm only a puthujjana with lots of work to do, but you should have much better luck with Bodhi/Thanissaro, provided that you make a strong case with backup resources and literature.
Maybe he has compassion and does not wish to cause people to worry; given what was omitted is rarely practised in the West and probably has greatly declined in Asia. I recall posting this passage once on this forum and an Australian member accused me of accusing him of being a bad father for not arranging the marriage of his daughter/s.
I disagree. Who does he think he is to twist and bend, add and remove words from the original scripture? I'll post it here again:DooDoot wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:51 amMaybe he has compassion and does not wish to cause people to worry; given what was omitted is rarely practised in the West and probably has greatly declined in Asia. I recall posting this passage once on this forum and an Australian member accused me of accusing him of being a bad father for not arranging the marriage of his daughter/s.
The important issue is there are alternate translations of DN 31; including on Sutta Central.
DN 31 - Sujato wrote:It appears Sujato deliberately skips the item for suttacentral still hasn't replied after I sent an email requesting them to correct the error thru their contact address: [email protected]. It's one thing to differ in interpretations regarding a sutta passage but it's just plain wrong to deliberately tinker with the original source by adding/removing sutta text. One's already made a fool out of himself for in this case, the paragraph clearly states five items but only list four. Actually this is worse than what's described in Drum Peg sutta for in that sutta, the Dasaharas folks only inserted a peg after the drum was splitted, but in this case, the Dhamma drum was deliberately splitted first!:
Thanks David, as I posted, it does not make sense to me, particularly because there are many more suttas that refer acquiring wealth in harmless ways and not acquired wealth in harmful ways and also refer to acquiring wealth through efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow. In other words, wealth, according to the suttas, can be acquired in very harmful and immoral ways therefore the correlation between virtue & wealth in MN 135 is highly tenuous to me. Plus, as i said, the reality of the world is much wealth has been acquired immorally; via colonialism, slavery, the opium trade, wars, cartels, sanctions on nations, environmental destruction, etc. The list of evil wealth is endless. Basically all empires used violence to accumulate wealth.
And what is the bliss of having? There is the case where the son of a good family has wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained. When he thinks, 'I have wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow, righteous wealth righteously gained,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of having.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The wise and virtuous shine like a blazing fire.
He who acquires his wealth in harmless ways
like to a bee that honey gathers,
riches mount up for him
like ant hill's rapid growth.
DN 31
Firstly, with his legitimate wealth—earned by his efforts and initiative, built up with his own hands, gathered by the sweat of the brow—he makes himself happy and pleased, keeping himself properly happy.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.41/en/sujato
First, a pleasure seeker seeks wealth using illegitimate, coercive means.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.91/en/sujato
Now, craving is dependent on feeling, seeking is dependent on craving, acquisition is dependent on seeking, ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, attachment is dependent on desire and passion, possessiveness is dependent on attachment, stinginess is dependent on possessiveness, defensiveness is dependent on stinginess, and because of defensiveness, dependent on defensiveness, various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies.
DN 15