diamind wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:53 am Please offer up something.
I have quoted may suttas. Its you that's not offering anything. In my opinion, your ideas were completely defeated in the debate here.
DNS wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:42 pmTranslation: If it doesn't fit your pre-conceived view, it's a later text. If it fits your pre-conceived view, it's an EBT (early Buddhist text).
No. Its unrelated to any personal views. Its goes against the other suttas about kamma; as I explained.
StormBorn wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:53 pmEBT wise, it’s awfully at stake to say MN 135 is late since it has
17 parallels spread through various ancient schools. And it’s content stands firm against basic teachings.
What parallels? Chinese Agama transmitted 100s of years after the Buddha? Since MN 135 is the very type of doctrine that justifies political and social status quo, it was obviously very popular with the "authorities". Regardless, it is indisputable that MN 135 is contrary to the Dhamma Refuge. Do you know what the Dhamma Refuge is? Can you quote it? Thanks
StormBorn wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:53 pmNow, if you say MN 111 is late, that’s totally fine since
“0” parallels and the content fails horribly against multiple points of Dhamma.
Its ironic that you use "parallels" to argue against Sujato, who seems to be one of the recent inventors of the "parallels school". Why don't you start another thread where we can discuss whether or not "parallels" are a dodgy form of studying dhamma. Also, start a thread where we can discuss MN 111
and whether or not it "fail terribly"?
TRobinson465 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:30 pmHes an atheistic Buddhist or somethinf I believe.
He is one with far greater sila that you; who has been celibate since 23yo; and had to censure you on your doctrine of sexual liberalism. In my experience, those who generally push reincarnation the strongest are often also those with the weaker sila because like Christians they take refuge in faith rather than deeds.
TRobinson465 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:30 pm He also calls devas and hungry ghosts intricate metaphors for human states rather than literal realms.
Unsubstantiated ideas; both of them.
Each realm is inseparable from a mental state. If people were reborn in
physical hell they wouldn't have a
mentality of happiness.
It appears your personal ideas are contrary to the Pali suttas and it is not DooDoot that is a heretic. Allow me to quote:
“Bhikkhus, it is a gain for you, it is well gained by you, that you have obtained the opportunity for living the holy life. I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable.
“It is a gain for you, bhikkhus, it is well gained by you, that you have obtained the opportunity for living the holy life. I have seen, bhikkhus, the heaven named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; lovely, never unlovely; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is desirable, never undesirable; lovely, never unlovely; agreeable, never disagreeable.
“It is a gain for you, bhikkhus, it is well gained by you, that you have obtained the opportunity for living the holy life.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.135/en/bodhi
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
SN 56.47 literally states the "human state" is one of moral righteousness & enligthenment.
“Sooner, I say, would that blind turtle, coming to the surface once every hundred years, insert its neck into that yoke with a single hole than the fool who has gone once to the nether world would regain the human state. For what reason? Because here, bhikkhus, there is no conduct guided by the Dhamma, no righteous conduct, no wholesome activity, no meritorious activity. Here there prevails mutual devouring, the devouring of the weak. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering … the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.47/en/bodhi
No point clinging to views about what is "literal" when it is actually not "literal". What is literal is "hell" is a state of "unhappiness" and "human" is a state of moral righteousness & wisdom.
TRobinson465 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:24 pm
DooDoot wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:20 am
Respectfully, my view is ideas about a "self" doing past actions that account for a pimple on the face or anus or a TV falling on the head won't help abandoning "self" that is required to exist samsara.
Warned by the deva messengers,
those youths who are heedless
grieve for a long, long time —
people entering a lower state.
But those here who are good,
people of integrity,
when warned by the deva messengers
aren't heedless
of the noble Dhamma — ever.
Seeing danger in clinging,
in the coming-into-play
of birth & death,
they are released from lack of clinging,
in the ending
of birth & death.
They, happy, arriving at safety,
fully unbound in the here-&-now,
having gone beyond
all animosity & danger
have escaped
all suffering & stress.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
To be honest I think this is sorta an extreme way of applying not self. The buddha said one of the wrong views is not believing that good and bad actions bear fruit. I also think "clinging" applies to clinging to views to the point of unshakable attachment. But to each their own.
To be honest I think "atheism" was clearly demonstrated above. You posted on this very thread how you want to be "very careful" but when I posted the highest carefulness in Buddhism, you appeared to negligently reject it.
As for the Buddha, he said one of the wrong views is not believing that good and bad actions bear fruit but also said this does not end suffering. Regardless, it is not DooDoot that believes in sexual liberalism, which is a bad action leading to rebirth in the animal, ghost and hell realms.
DooDoot believes more strongly than Baby Brahma Boy in good and bad actions bear fruit.
The most serious bad kamma is negligently rejecting the teaching of not-self and non-clinging; as said in MN 130. Funny thread. Baby Brahma Boy calling followers of Noble Dhamma "atheists"; as though Buddhism is about believing in theistic "God" or "Brahma".
Polar Bear wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:43 pm
I think the Buddha would argue against the view that our decisions now are determined by what was done in the past. And he’d argue against such a view not by providing some metaphysical argument, but by showing that such a view is unhelpful to hold for someone who wants to be virtuous, self controlled, and to end suffering. I think the Buddha thought that to put in the work to become liberated, one needs to see oneself as having a high degree of autonomy, or free will, and to assume a very high degree of personal responsibility.
I think SN 35.145 best epitomizes the above; where Buddha emphasises the cessation of "new kamma".
"Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak.
"Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.
"And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma.
"And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma.
"And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.
"So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html