Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
sentinel
Posts: 2675
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by sentinel » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:26 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:11 am
This looks interesting, what evidence do you have this emerged under King Ashoka?
My dating might be wrong but Jataka, Apadana, Buddhavamsa, etc, are late texts that are about micro details of literal past lives and, imo, have themes closer to Mahayana (Bodhisattva ideal) than the Pali suttas. I suppose I point to Ashoka (but might be wrong) because he was very focused on creating a social religion for India.
If you could explain how is it to call an Bodhisatta ideal ?
Mr no.2

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 7233
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:39 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:10 am
If you could explain how is it to call an Bodhisatta ideal ?
In the Pali suttas, I have not ready many stories about acts of past life good kamma leading to enlightenment. I have only read about 10 suttas (eg. AN 3.15; MN 50) from 1,000s of suttas that have similar themes. In the Pali suttas, the stream-enterer attains Nibbana in a heavenly realm rather than returns to the world of people to perform compassionate deeds to save sentient beings. But the Mahayana Bodhisatta ideal appears very similar to Theravada Jataka stories. At least for me, I can logically see how Mahayana evolved directly from later Theravada.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

diamind
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:26 am

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:35 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:11 am
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:05 am
DNS wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:42 pm
But it's not just in MN 135 as others have noted, see also RobertK's posts
They sound like later texts. I am not denying to past-life frenzy obviously become very popular; probably under King Ashoka.
This looks interesting, what evidence do you have this emerged under King Ashoka?
Is Doodoot saying he is denying past lifes? Now he is just trolling

diamind
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:26 am

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:38 am
DNS wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:07 pm
Monks, possessing forty qualities one is cast into purgatory . . . he takes life himself, encourages another to do so, approves of taking life, and speaks in praise of thereof . . ." Anguttara Nikaya 10. 213
As I already distinguished, sutta discourses (apart from MN 135) appear to be about how knowable present actions lead to definable future results (rather than about how present events are determined by unknowable past actions). Allow me to return to the basics, as follows:
"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

AN 6.63
AN 6.63 says 5 x kamma results in experiencing 5 x of realms. AN 6.63 does not say the pimple on my face or TV fallen on my head is from X type of past kamma. Thus, here kamma-vipaka taught by the Buddha seemed to change from future macro realms to past created micro events. In other words, when a TV falls on my head, what realm is that? Heaven, hell, human, animal, ghost? :shrug: The doctrine has become completely different.

I think it appears obvious the kamma doctrine changed over time from two realms (heaven & hell) in the Three Knowledges; to five realms (heaven, hell, human, animal & ghost); to infinite micro kamma-vipaka.
diamind wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:51 am
Do you think bhande Sujato should outright stop drawing from later Buddhist text in his teachings, it's damn right confusing.
I think you should learn Buddhism rather than beat the same old drum of unsubstantiated allegations. Personally, I have no issues with Bhikkhu Sujato because I am confident in what to accept and what to reject. If you notice my posted sutta quotes; I will use different translators dependent upon the translation.
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:44 pm
Well the normal way kamma is presented makes more sense. So how do you come to understand the way Sujato presents it?
But to many it doesn't make sense. For example, to the average spiritual materialist, they believe wealthy people are so because of good kamma in past lives (which is often contrary to the reality that wealthy people acquire wealth in evil ways). Once you start attributing rape, murder, abuse, etc, to past life kamma, it doesn't make moral sense at all because you shift the moral responsibility.

Imagine if you were a lawyer representing a rapist in court and you argued the woman was raped due to her past kamma. The judge would laugh at you. :)
‘In that case, you might kill living creatures, steal, be unchaste; use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical; be covetous, malicious, or have wrong view, all because of past deeds.’

Those who believe that past deeds are the most important thing have no enthusiasm or effort, no idea that there are things that should and should not be done.

Since they don’t acknowledge as a genuine fact that there are things that should and should not be done, they’re unmindful and careless, and can’t rightly be called ascetics.

This is my first legitimate refutation of the ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato
:smile:
I do think B Sujato is an amazing teacher, he is mind blowing, I just dont understand this point, Im outright rejecting it for now, but I'm also trying to understand where he is coming from, it's really slippery for my mind to grasp but Im open about it and thinking about it.

Anyway my next point is.........

Why do you side with Bhante sujato? Was it through his teaching? Or someone elses teaching? Are you infact Bhande Sujato?

I dont think anyone would even come to the same conclusion as Bhante Sujato unless you where some kind of scholar or you encountered a teacher or book that was propitiating the idea. It's just far too technical and too radical for the average person to come up with.
So where did this start? Must have some history even before sujato? ( however if you do translated the whole sutta pitika then you might come to that conclusion yourself). I think its strange you reject answering this question everytime Ive asked, now its the 3rd and last time I will ask. Please offer up something.

User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by StormBorn » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:29 pm

diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:52 pm
StormBorn wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:31 pm
diamind wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:24 pm
He also says collective karma's are a myth and birth defects are not created by karma.
I remember reading Prof. Ian Stevenson's works where he gave several incidents which clearly prove the relation of past actions and birth defects. He even managed to find the records of court cases as proof of past memories and birth defects.

Perhaps, Bhante Sujato doesn't like the Biblical idea of "sinner". :evil:
It's obvious he hates it but it's kinda disturbing when you get dharma students telling people their son is disabled because they where bad in a past life. Just shut it! No one wants to hear that, whether its true or not.
Edit: I dont mean you, I mean those people who say things like that. Its uncalled for. in that way I unstand where sujato is coming from.
In Asia if something bad happened to someone, people readily accept the karmic cause & effect, and casually might even say things like, "He must have done something bad in his past." But elsewhere, such a remark mostly received with much hostility. If Bhante Sujato like ppl started ripping things like karmic cause & effect from Buddhism, not sure what will left in the end. Perhaps, another mutation rather than an "Early Buddhism!" :shrug:

Same goes with feminism. In Asia females, except those much influenced by the West, are OK with their female birth, bodies, and they accept that their brains release different hormones (just to say). And, hardly hear about protesting to be treated like males as in the West.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

User avatar
AgarikaJ
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:21 pm

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by AgarikaJ » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:54 pm

DNS wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:42 pm
Perhaps it's better to just say that one shouldn't speculate on another's kamma or the results of something bad happening to them, especially as this may get into the "blaming the victim" thing.
It is also, frankly, one of the things we can never be sure about. So it might not benefit us too much to ruminate endlessly, if one single act is sufficient to accrue enough Bad Kamma to be reborn disadvantaged, of if it is indeed possible to overcome Bad Kamma by also accruing Good Kamma.

Maybe I see this too simplistic, but I seek to avoid accruing Bad Kamma because it does not burden me with ever more fetters that need to be overcome by practice, while Good Kamma helps in loosening said fetters.

I can only work with what Kamma I got at the point of my birth. What can be influenced is how I react to everything from this moment onwards.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by StormBorn » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:35 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:54 pm
It is also, frankly, one of the things we can never be sure about. So it might not benefit us too much to ruminate endlessly, if one single act is sufficient to accrue enough Bad Kamma to be reborn disadvantaged, of if it is indeed possible to overcome Bad Kamma by also accruing Good Kamma.
If someone murder another, do you think, that one single act of murder will not make the murderer reborn disadvantaged?
AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:54 pm
I can only work with what Kamma I got at the point of my birth. What can be influenced is how I react to everything from this moment onwards.
Good point.

Dependent origination has 3 parts. If people don't have the Right View of "their past kammas may have given certain results here (good or bad)", then they might easily be irresponsible regarding current actions. Such wrong views existed in India as we all know. May be correct to say, such a person is similar to a felon yet to be caught by the police :smile:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

diamind
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:26 am

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:21 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:29 pm
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:52 pm
StormBorn wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:31 pm


I remember reading Prof. Ian Stevenson's works where he gave several incidents which clearly prove the relation of past actions and birth defects. He even managed to find the records of court cases as proof of past memories and birth defects.

Perhaps, Bhante Sujato doesn't like the Biblical idea of "sinner". :evil:
It's obvious he hates it but it's kinda disturbing when you get dharma students telling people their son is disabled because they where bad in a past life. Just shut it! No one wants to hear that, whether its true or not.
Edit: I dont mean you, I mean those people who say things like that. Its uncalled for. in that way I unstand where sujato is coming from.
In Asia if something bad happened to someone, people readily accept the karmic cause & effect, and casually might even say things like, "He must have done something bad in his past." But elsewhere, such a remark mostly received with much hostility. If Bhante Sujato like ppl started ripping things like karmic cause & effect from Buddhism, not sure what will left in the end. Perhaps, another mutation rather than an "Early Buddhism!" :shrug:

Same goes with feminism. In Asia females, except those much influenced by the West, are OK with their female birth, bodies, and they accept that their brains release different hormones (just to say). And, hardly hear about protesting to be treated like males as in the West.
Theres definitely a problem when you think you are upholding the true dharma better then the monks who actually codified the Pali canon. I was just trying to find a quote by Ajahn Chah about kamma, but I found Bhante Shravasti Dhammika book disguised as a book by ajahn Chah!!!!! Very sneaky, I wonder what the kamma result is of that! He is also an Australian monk, maybe he is the lineage holder of this idea?

Passage fro his book....

"Kammic Determinism
Before explaining what the Buddha said about kamma let us have a look at what kamma is not. The most widespread misunderstanding about kamma is the idea that everything that happens to the individual is due to ethical or unethical deeds they did in the past. Breaking a leg, being cheated on by one’s spouse or being poor are, it is asserted, all due to having done morally bad things in the past. On the other hand, having an attractive face, winning the lottery or getting a raise are supposedly due to having done something good. Everything from one’s social status, to the country one is born into, to the state of one’s health, etc, are all due to past kamma. Such claims directly contradict the Buddha’s Dhamma. According to the Buddha there are three false and pernicious views – the belief that everything that happens is due to past kamma (pubbekatahetu), that everything is due to the will of a supreme God (issaranimmānahetu), and the belief that everything that happens is without a cause (ahetu- appaccayā). (1)"

User avatar
AgarikaJ
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:21 pm

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by AgarikaJ » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:28 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:35 pm
If someone murder another, do you think, that one single act of murder will not make the murderer reborn disadvantaged?
Indeed I believe that to be the case. I also believe that even if I did murder somebody, I might be less disadvantaged compared to somebody doing more unwholesome acts on top of it.

But by how much? Can this be quantified? Accruing might not be a simple addition or subtraction.

We do not know, the Buddha did not make it clear: he was not bothered about how we could optimize our existence in Samsara, he sought to show a way on how to overcome it.
StormBorn wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:29 pm
In Asia if something bad happened to someone, people readily accept the karmic cause & effect, and casually might even say things like, "He must have done something bad in his past.
This is where I believe many Asians actually get it wrong. Acknowledging Kamma is one thing, but doing it in the fatalist way I often have observed is equally counterproductive to acting irresponsible because one does not believe in Kamma (or repercussions form it) at all. Both extreme views are unhelpful.

As such I believe it to be academic to worry about our -- or worse others' -- unwholesome deeds and how they rank against each other. This existence in Samsara is a race with only a single participant, us. Going slow or going fast, there is always the same finish line, if we do not undertake very specific actions to allow us to never reach it.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by StormBorn » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:16 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:28 pm
Indeed I believe that to be the case. I also believe that even if I did murder somebody, I might be less disadvantaged compared to somebody doing more unwholesome acts on top of it.

But by how much? Can this be quantified? Accruing might not be a simple addition or subtraction.
Obviously every action creates a reaction. But surely one can't say specifically, "This will/will not cause that" or "That caused/didn't cause this" unless one has "Recollection of Past Lives" or "Clairvoyance".

From DN 2:
4.3.3.6. Recollection of Past Lives

When their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, spotless, rid of taints, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend it and project it toward recollection of past lives. They recollect many kinds of past lives, that is, one, two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand rebirths; many eons of the world contracting, many eons of the world evolving, many eons of the world contracting and evolving. They remember: ‘There, I was named this, my clan was that, I looked like this, and that was my food. This was how I felt pleasure and pain, and that was how my life ended. When I passed away from that place I was reborn somewhere else. There, too, I was named this, my clan was that, I looked like this, and that was my food. This was how I felt pleasure and pain, and that was how my life ended. When I passed away from that place I was reborn here.’ And so they recollect their many kinds of past lives, with features and details.

Suppose a person was to leave their home village and go to another village. From that village they’d go to yet another village. And from that village they’d return to their home village. They’d think: ‘I went from my home village to another village. There I stood like this, sat like that, spoke like this, or kept silent like that. From that village I went to yet another village. There too I stood like this, sat like that, spoke like this, or kept silent like that. And from that village I returned to my home village.’ In the same way, when their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, spotless, rid of taints, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend it and project it toward recollection of past lives. This too, great king, is a fruit of the ascetic life that’s apparent in the present life which is better and finer than the former ones.
4.3.3.7. Clairvoyance

When their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, spotless, rid of taints, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend it and project it toward knowledge of the death and rebirth of sentient beings. With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, they see sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. They understood how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds: ‘These dear beings did bad things by way of body, speech, and mind. They spoke ill of the noble ones; they had wrong view; and they acted out of that wrong view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. These dear beings, however, did good things by way of body, speech, and mind. They never spoke ill of the noble ones; they had right view; and they acted out of that right view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.’ And so, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, they see sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. They understand how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds.

Suppose there was a stilt longhouse at the central square. A person with good eyesight standing there might see people entering and leaving a house, walking along the streets and paths, and sitting at the central square. They’d think: ‘These are people entering and leaving a house, walking along the streets and paths, and sitting at the central square.’ In the same way, when their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, spotless, rid of taints, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend and project it toward knowledge of the death and rebirth of sentient beings. This too, great king, is a fruit of the ascetic life that’s apparent in the present life which is better and finer than the former ones.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

TRobinson465
Posts: 575
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:30 pm

diamind wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:35 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:11 am
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:05 am

They sound like later texts. I am not denying to past-life frenzy obviously become very popular; probably under King Ashoka.
This looks interesting, what evidence do you have this emerged under King Ashoka?
Is Doodoot saying he is denying past lifes? Now he is just trolling
Hes an atheistic Buddhist or somethinf I believe. So he possibly isnt trolling. He also calls devas and hungry ghosts intricate metaphors for human states rather than literal realms.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
Posts: 575
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:34 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:28 pm
StormBorn wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:35 pm
If someone murder another, do you think, that one single act of murder will not make the murderer reborn disadvantaged?
Indeed I believe that to be the case. I also believe that even if I did murder somebody, I might be less disadvantaged compared to somebody doing more unwholesome acts on top of it.

But by how much? Can this be quantified? Accruing might not be a simple addition or subtraction.

We do not know, the Buddha did not make it clear: he was not bothered about how we could optimize our existence in Samsara, he sought to show a way on how to overcome it.
StormBorn wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:29 pm
In Asia if something bad happened to someone, people readily accept the karmic cause & effect, and casually might even say things like, "He must have done something bad in his past.
This is where I believe many Asians actually get it wrong. Acknowledging Kamma is one thing, but doing it in the fatalist way I often have observed is equally counterproductive to acting irresponsible because one does not believe in Kamma (or repercussions form it) at all. Both extreme views are unhelpful.

As such I believe it to be academic to worry about our -- or worse others' -- unwholesome deeds and how they rank against each other. This existence in Samsara is a race with only a single participant, us. Going slow or going fast, there is always the same finish line, if we do not undertake very specific actions to allow us to never reach it.
Middle way guys. Just because taking kamma to an extreme to the point where u are inactive doesnt mean u throw out the whole thing. The key is issue is "everything" is caused by kamma is a wrong view.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 12865
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DNS » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:42 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:05 am
DNS wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:42 pm
But it's not just in MN 135 as others have noted, see also RobertK's posts
They sound like later texts. I am not denying to past-life frenzy obviously become very popular; probably under King Ashoka.

:smile:
Translation: If it doesn't fit your pre-conceived view, it's a later text. If it fits your pre-conceived view, it's an EBT (early Buddhist text).

Oh no! I'm starting to sound like a Classical Theravada Buddhist; I thought I was a "Modern Theravadin." :tongue:

I can agree that some texts are clearly not EBT, but when we start saying some texts from the first 4 Nikayas are later texts, it sounds like cherry-picking to suit your views.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 12865
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DNS » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:44 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:34 pm
Middle way guys. Just because taking kamma to an extreme to the point where u are inactive doesnt mean u throw out the whole thing. The key is issue is "everything" is caused by kamma is a wrong view.
:thumbsup: Yes, I agree.

"Everything" is caused by kamma -- wrong view.
"Nothing" is caused by kamma -- also wrong view.

Correct view: some by kamma, some by the other niyamas, weather, biology, etc.

diamind
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:26 am

Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:28 pm

So why do we have this thing called EBT now? Surely scholars have been doing the same research for centuries.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], JohnK, one_awakening and 161 guests