Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

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diamind
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:44 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:17 pm
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:56 am
Where is it coming from because its totally counterintuitive
Just more personal opinions above, ignoring the suttas. What does "counterintuitive" supposed to mean?
Well the normal way kamma is presented makes more sense. So how do you come to understand the way Sujato presents it?

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DNS » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:42 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:23 am
Also, there is 0% evidence the Buddha taught MN 135 to the Baby Brahmin Boy.
But it's not just in MN 135 as others have noted, see also RobertK's posts. There are numerous places where some evil act is done and then the results of that bad kamma is manifested in some bad rebirth or thing happening to them; rocks being thrown at them, boulders, injuries, (very similar to a TV falling on you), being reborn in a hell realm, some sort of realm where birds peck at your bones (a former butcher, etc).

I think there are plenty of sutta references to back-up either position on this. In fact there are plenty of passages to back up the so-called "Asian superstitious views" of things bad happening due to your past bad deeds. And the modern-secular Buddhist views could be seen as another attempt to put PC into Buddhism.

Perhaps it's better to just say that one shouldn't speculate on another's kamma or the results of something bad happening to them, especially as this may get into the "blaming the victim" thing.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by StormBorn » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:31 pm

diamind wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:24 pm
He also says collective karma's are a myth and birth defects are not created by karma.
I remember reading Prof. Ian Stevenson's works where he gave several incidents which clearly prove the relation of past actions and birth defects. He even managed to find the records of court cases as proof of past memories and birth defects.

Perhaps, Bhante Sujato doesn't like the Biblical idea of "sinner". :evil:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by Zom » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:42 pm

We actually don't even need to search the suttas to point out the flaw of that statement. Just apply common sense and logic. By saying outright that the event has nothing to do with kamma, it automatically assumes that Sujato already possesses the supernormal power to see through the countless lives of that person and found zero kammic causes that lead to the unfortunate event. It would've been a more honest and humble response if he simply said he doesn't know because the truth is that he really doesn't know (and same for everyone else who haven't attained supernormal powers).
This.


Concerning the subject - I think this is just "his personal view". Mine, for example, does not coincide. I pretty sure that such unfortunate accidents happen due do kamma. Plane crashes, earthquakes, etc - included. However, there is no info about that [such details] in the suttas. Killing ... leads to a short life. That IS in the suttas 8-)

If one says that unfortunate accidents are not kamma, then I have a question to ask: how do you image the happening of kammic fruit of killing? One suddenly dies on the spot without any reasons? But such thing never happens in reality. There are always some physical reasons why people die. These or that - but they are always there. Does that mean that "this is not kamma, because there were these/that [materialistic] reasons"? I don't think so. Kamma is not some metaphysical substance that causes things to happen. It is a mental process (volition = kamma, as Buddha says) launched into extremely complicated net of physical and mental phenomenons which can be called "a world". Billions of interconnected events come and go, come and go, and finally reach a stage where they can be called "a fruit". This is where you die, for example, as a result of killing in some past life. What is more, according to the suttas again, this kammic event can have kammic aftermath effects as well, smaller secondary "fruits"... Or - not. That's how complex it all may be.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DNS » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:07 pm

"Monks, possessing forty qualities one is cast into purgatory . . . he takes life himself, encourages another to do so, approves of taking life, and speaks in praise of thereof . . ."
Anguttara Nikaya 10. 213
Just now, reverend, as I was descending from Vulture’s Peak Mountain I saw a skeleton flying through the air. Vultures, crows, and hawks kept chasing it, pecking and clawing as it screeched in pain. It occurred to me: ‘It’s incredible, it’s amazing! That there can be such a sentient being, such an entity, such an incarnation!’”

Then the Buddha said to the mendicants: “Mendicants, there are disciples who live full of vision and knowledge, since a disciple knows, sees, and witnesses such a thing. Formerly, I too saw that being, but I did not speak of it. For if I had spoken of it others would not have believed me, which would be for their lasting harm and suffering. That being used to be a cattle butcher right here in Rājagaha. As a result of that deed he burned in hell for many years, many hundreds, many thousands, many hundreds of thousands of years. Now he experiences the residual result of that deed in such an incarnation.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn19.1/en/sujato
I'm sure there are many more too, I recall Ananda asking where a certain monk went after passing, where another monk went, to which realm. And the Buddha answered to which realm they went, based on their deeds, level of attainments and finally then Buddha said it would be to cumbersome to answer all of Ananda's requests for info, so he spoke generally about which deeds will lead to this destination, to that destination, etc.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:52 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:31 pm
diamind wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:24 pm
He also says collective karma's are a myth and birth defects are not created by karma.
I remember reading Prof. Ian Stevenson's works where he gave several incidents which clearly prove the relation of past actions and birth defects. He even managed to find the records of court cases as proof of past memories and birth defects.

Perhaps, Bhante Sujato doesn't like the Biblical idea of "sinner". :evil:
It's obvious he hates it but it's kinda disturbing when you get dharma students telling people their son is disabled because they where bad in a past life. Just shut it! No one wants to hear that, whether its true or not.
Edit: I dont mean you, I mean those people who say things like that. Its uncalled for. in that way I unstand where sujato is coming from.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:24 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:20 am
Respectfully, my view is ideas about a "self" doing past actions that account for a pimple on the face or anus or a TV falling on the head won't help abandoning "self" that is required to exist samsara.
Warned by the deva messengers,
those youths who are heedless
grieve for a long, long time —
people entering a lower state.
But those here who are good,
people of integrity,
when warned by the deva messengers
aren't heedless
of the noble Dhamma — ever.
Seeing danger in clinging,
in the coming-into-play
of birth & death,
they are released from lack of clinging,
in the ending
of birth & death.
They, happy, arriving at safety,
fully unbound in the here-&-now,
having gone beyond
all animosity & danger
have escaped
all suffering & stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
To be honest I think this is sorta an extreme way of applying not self. The buddha said one of the wrong views is not believing that good and bad actions bear fruit. I also think "clinging" applies to clinging to views to the point of unshakable attachment. But to each their own.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

diamind
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by diamind » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:51 am

Do you think bhande Sujato should outright stop drawing from later Buddhist text in his teachings, it's damn right confusing. He quotes them all the time to explain Buddhism or get his point across, but others times he saids.. oh no no that an a later text we can't accept that. I think its good to be aware but a little bit more consistency is in oder I think.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:00 am

Anywho, Sujato is entitled to his own opinions. He's just a Sekkha who still gets lots of work to be done, just like you, me, and everyone else. Remember we're Theravadins, we pledge our allegiance to the Buddha's Dhamma, not some modern day guru.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:05 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:42 pm
But it's not just in MN 135 as others have noted, see also RobertK's posts
They sound like later texts. I am not denying to past-life frenzy obviously become very popular; probably under King Ashoka.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:37 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:08 am

diamind wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:51 am
Do you think bhande Sujato should outright stop drawing from later Buddhist text in his teachings, it's damn right confusing. He quotes them all the time to explain Buddhism or get his point across, but others times he saids.. oh no no that an a later text we can't accept that. I think its good to be aware but a little bit more consistency is in oder I think.
I think he certainly should. but to be fair ppl in general do this all the time. if something supports your preconceived views or opinions you conveniently accept it, if it conflicts with it you conveniently reject it without any kind of logical consistency. Buddhists like to think they are above confirmation bias, but it effects us also. Secular Buddhists for instance will basically pick and choose teachings out of no consistency whatsoever, if it agrees with their view of reality its a "legitimate" text, if not, its an "addition"/"later text" without any kind of consistent logic outside of "i agree with it and since im brilliant and western educated and come from a western culture of reason rather than a culture of eastern superstition this text must be legit". Unenlightened people have this tendency unfortunately. I am totally aware of this phenomonen and even I end up doing it to an extent, although less shamelessly as people who dont make themselves aware of this imho.

Instead of changing their views to fit the texts, unenlightened people who have not let go of thier ego (pretty much everyone on this forum including me i might add) are just too tempted to change the texts to fit their views.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:05 am
DNS wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:42 pm
But it's not just in MN 135 as others have noted, see also RobertK's posts
They sound like later texts. I am not denying to past-life frenzy obviously become very popular; probably under King Ashoka.
This looks interesting, what evidence do you have this emerged under King Ashoka?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:26 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:11 am
This looks interesting, what evidence do you have this emerged under King Ashoka?
My dating might be wrong but Jataka, Apadana, Buddhavamsa, etc, are late texts that are about micro details of literal past lives and, imo, have themes closer to Mahayana (Bodhisattva ideal) than the Pali suttas. I suppose I point to Ashoka (but might be wrong) because he was very focused on creating a social religion for India.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:27 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:26 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:11 am
This looks interesting, what evidence do you have this emerged under King Ashoka?
My dating might be wrong but Jataka, Apadana, Buddhavamsa, etc, are late texts that are about micro details of literal past lives and, imo, have themes closer to Mahayana (Bodhisattva ideal) than the Pali suttas. I suppose I point to Ashoka (but might be wrong) because he was very focused on creating a social religion for India.
Oh okay. Interesting reasoning. Thanks for sharing. :anjali:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:38 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:07 pm
Monks, possessing forty qualities one is cast into purgatory . . . he takes life himself, encourages another to do so, approves of taking life, and speaks in praise of thereof . . ." Anguttara Nikaya 10. 213
As I already distinguished, sutta discourses (apart from MN 135) appear to be about how knowable present actions lead to definable future results (rather than about how present events are determined by unknowable past actions). Allow me to return to the basics, as follows:
"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

AN 6.63
AN 6.63 says 5 x kamma results in experiencing 5 x of realms. AN 6.63 does not say the pimple on my face or TV fallen on my head is from X type of past kamma. Thus, here kamma-vipaka taught by the Buddha seemed to change from future macro realms to past created micro events. In other words, when a TV falls on my head, what realm is that? Heaven, hell, human, animal, ghost? :shrug: The doctrine has become completely different.

I think it appears obvious the kamma doctrine changed over time from two realms (heaven & hell) in the Three Knowledges; to five realms (heaven, hell, human, animal & ghost); to infinite micro kamma-vipaka.
diamind wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:51 am
Do you think bhande Sujato should outright stop drawing from later Buddhist text in his teachings, it's damn right confusing.
I think you should learn Buddhism rather than beat the same old drum of unsubstantiated allegations. Personally, I have no issues with Bhikkhu Sujato because I am confident in what to accept and what to reject. If you notice my posted sutta quotes; I will use different translators dependent upon the translation.
diamind wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:44 pm
Well the normal way kamma is presented makes more sense. So how do you come to understand the way Sujato presents it?
But to many it doesn't make sense. For example, to the average spiritual materialist, they believe wealthy people are so because of good kamma in past lives (which is often contrary to the reality that wealthy people acquire wealth in evil ways). Once you start attributing rape, murder, abuse, etc, to past life kamma, it doesn't make moral sense at all because you shift the moral responsibility.

Imagine if you were a lawyer representing a rapist in court and you argued the woman was raped due to her past kamma. The judge would laugh at you. :)
‘In that case, you might kill living creatures, steal, be unchaste; use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical; be covetous, malicious, or have wrong view, all because of past deeds.’

Those who believe that past deeds are the most important thing have no enthusiasm or effort, no idea that there are things that should and should not be done.

Since they don’t acknowledge as a genuine fact that there are things that should and should not be done, they’re unmindful and careless, and can’t rightly be called ascetics.

This is my first legitimate refutation of the ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato
:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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