Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thang
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:37 pm

Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by thang » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:23 pm

Some scholars and their followers disregard some suttas and sutta passages because those are hard for them to comply with.

May be some of their analysis is helpful, yet they seems to disrespect the suttas and vinaya.

1. Anti-Vipassana scholars and their followers disregard the suttas and passages describing vipassana.
2. Anti-Samatha scholars and their followers disregard the suttas and passages describing samatha.
3. Equitist/marxist/feminist scholars and their followers disregard the suttas and passages describing Garudhamma and Elderly respect.
4. Anti-Ritual scholars and their followers disregard the suttas and passages describing Rituals.

Nearly in the future some scholars will say the teachings describing "Dukkha" are inauthentic because dukkha is hard.

After some decades there will be no texts for Buddhists.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4639
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:32 pm

thang wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:23 pm
Some scholars and their followers disregard some suttas and sutta passages because those are hard for them to comply with. [...]
After some decades there will be no texts for Buddhists.
How so? The texts will still be there for those who want to read them. All that will have happened is that "some scholars and their followers" will have disregarded them. They won't have made them unavailable.

What others disregard has no bearing on what I do; why does it bother you?

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by binocular » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:35 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:32 pm
What others disregard has no bearing on what I do;

why does it bother you?
Because he's a protector of the Dhamma. He can't let others besmirch it.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

dharmacorps
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:38 pm

thang wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:23 pm
Some scholars and their followers disregard some suttas and sutta passages because those are hard for them to comply with.

Sn 4.8

Those who dispute, taking hold of a view,
saying, "This, and this only, is true,"
those you can talk to.
Here there is nothing —
no confrontation
at the birth of disputes.

paul
Posts: 1362
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by paul » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:22 pm

Quote: “Nearly in the future some scholars will say the teachings describing "Dukkha" are inauthentic because dukkha is hard.”

Dukkha is caused by impermanence, and samsara is conditioned, subject to the cycles of impermanence. In their first confrontation with the Theravada truth, practitioners scramble to cling to something after their main mental nutriment of samsara is destroyed. In the quest for mental survival, people become frantic. Some cannot face the fact that their life support has been discredited, and choose to continue to live in a dream-delusion. Others take a rational approach and begin to assess exactly what they are faced with. Among the debris, they start to collect pieces to make a raft. One of these fragments is that conventionl reality has a limited truth which is not to be subject to aversion, but recognized for what it is:
“These are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world, which the Perfect One (Tathagata) uses without misapprehending them”. (DN 9)

Those therefore avoid the terrifying polarized view, and begin to utilize conventional reality as a means of progress toward the further shore.

“This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Overcome by two viewpoints, some human & divine beings adhere, other human & divine beings slip right past, while those with vision see”
[…]
"And how do those with vision see? There is the case where a monk sees what has come into being as come into being. Seeing what has come into being as come into being, he practices for disenchantment with what has come into being, dispassion toward what has come into being, cessation of what has come into being. This is how those with vision see.” Itivittuka 49 (43)

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3302
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:01 pm

thang wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:23 pm
Nearly in the future some scholars will say the teachings describing "Dukkha" are inauthentic because dukkha is hard. After some decades there will be no texts for Buddhists.
I think your post was poorly argued because being anti-vipassana or anti-garudhamma does not remove vipassana and gurudhamma from the texts.
thang wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:23 pm
After some decades there will be no texts for Buddhists.
In my opinion, a Buddhist is a person or mind that experiences dukkha and uses the Buddha's path to end dukkha. Therefore, I think your argument that there will be Buddhists but no dukkha is illogical. The Buddha said he teaches about dukkha & its cessation therefore it seems there cannot be Buddhists without dukkha.

I wrote the follow below on another thread but deleted it.
Your posts here seem to show three characteristics:

1. Weak understanding of Pali Buddhism. For example, don't understand "nama-rupa".

2. Poor subjective arguments. For example, the quote below.

3. Lack of gratitude or thankfulness. For example, I, as a Westerner, answered your question about "nama-rupa" for you and taught you Ajahn Chah was only "generalizing" but you did not thank me.

For example, the following is a poor meaningless subjective argument because there is no logic or truth behind it. It Pali, the following argument is called "papanca" ("monkey chatter"): "If someone fails to understand even such a thing, means that he is in a hurry". There is no correlation between failing to understand and being in a hurry.

Maybe the moderator can change the title of the thread to: "Will Thang ever catch Buddhism ?"
:alien:
thang wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:23 pm
After some decades there will be no texts for Buddhists.
The texts are preserved in many countries, such as Sri Lanka. Burma, Thailand, etc. If the texts disappear then it will be Sri Lankans, Burmese & Thai that destroy them. Again, your argument is poorly reasoned. :roll:

User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by salayatananirodha » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:47 am

Read the dhammacakkappavattana sutta once more and there is a statement there that kind of resolves this line of thinking
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by StormBorn » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:59 am

thang wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:23 pm
Nearly in the future some scholars will say the teachings describing "Dukkha" are inauthentic because dukkha is hard.
Do you see crocodiles in your tea cup? :rofl:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

User avatar
AgarikaJ
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:21 pm

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by AgarikaJ » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:31 pm

thang wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:23 pm
Nearly in the future some scholars will say the teachings describing "Dukkha" are inauthentic because dukkha is hard.
I know you wrote your post tongue in cheek. Anyway, why the need to go into the future, the concept of living life without Dukkha is well-known, it is called Jivanmukti.

Contemporaries of the historic Buddha have believed this and there are followers of this into the present. They number in the many multiples of Theravada Buddhists and most of them live in Asia (if this would count for anything).

[something to read about how the Vedanta schools of Hinduism compare to Buddhism, for those who are inclined: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el002.html]
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

thang
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:37 pm

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by thang » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:30 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:32 pm
How so? The texts will still be there for those who want to read them. All that will have happened is that "some scholars and their followers" will have disregarded them. They won't have made them unavailable.
They will have them unavailable/difficult to access for at least major part of the society.
binocular wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:35 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:32 pm
What others disregard has no bearing on what I do;
why does it bother you?
Because he's a protector of the Dhamma. He can't let others besmirch it.
Thank you !
paul wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:22 pm
Others take a rational approach and begin to assess exactly what they are faced with. Among the debris, they start to collect pieces to make a raft.
Those therefore avoid the terrifying polarized view, and begin to utilize conventional reality as a means of progress toward the further shore.
One's pole is middle to another. One's middle is pole to another.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:01 pm
subjective arguments, .. logic, .. argument, .. correlation, .. your argument, .. poorly reasoned.
Dhamma cannot be realized by a logical approach.
salayatananirodha wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:47 am
Read the dhammacakkappavattana sutta once more and there is a statement there that kind of resolves this line of thinking
If you ask me to read the dhammacakkappavattana sutta next time, I may not be able to find the sutta.
StormBorn wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:59 am
Do you see crocodiles in your tea cup?
You will not see a crocodile even when it is at your leg.
AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:31 pm
the concept of living life without Dukkha is well-known, it is called Jivanmukti.
Is this Theravada ?
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4639
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:41 pm

thang wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:30 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:32 pm
How so? The texts will still be there for those who want to read them. All that will have happened is that "some scholars and their followers" will have disregarded them. They won't have made them unavailable.
They will have them unavailable/difficult to access for at least major part of the society.
Again, how so? Why should scholars disregarding part of the canon result in the unavailability of that part for others? Accessing material from the Pali Canon is completely unaffected by whether particular individuals regard it or not. We would only be deprived if every scholar and every publisher - on line and in hard copy - decided unanimously to ban translations of certain parts. But that's not going to happen. If you think it is, then start saving texts on a portable hard drive or burying books wrapped in cling-film in secret locations.

thang
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:37 pm

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by thang » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:35 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:41 pm
Again, how so? Why should scholars disregarding part of the canon result in the unavailability of that part for others? Accessing material from the Pali Canon is completely unaffected by whether particular individuals regard it or not.
The majority of people gain access to the Dhamma by reading the books of those famous scholars. Then they have their brain washed from the beginning, in order to disregard some parts of suttas. Then this happen to their successors as well. This process continues and future generations will disregard some important suttas as authentic texts, even if the hard copies are available somewhere.

Disappearance of the text is happened by wrong categorization, not by disappearance of hard copies.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4639
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:51 pm

thang wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:35 pm
The majority of people gain access to the Dhamma by reading the books of those famous scholars. Then they have their brain washed from the beginning, in order to disregard some parts of suttas. Then this happen to their successors as well. This process continues and future generations will disregard some important suttas as authentic texts, even if the hard copies are available somewhere.

Disappearance of the text is happened by wrong categorization, not by disappearance of hard copies.
But the suttas are still there for all to read. If scholar X writes a book on Buddhism which disregards the concept of Dukkha, then that does not remove that same concept from all the other scholarly texts which do include it, much less the suttas. Scholar X is not able to email Sujato to tell him to remove all references to Dukkha from Sutta Central, nor is he able to burgle your house to take away all those fat books by Bhikkhu Bodhi.

And, of course, you will be here on DW to show us the gaps in Scholar X's exegesis.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3302
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:42 am

thang wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:30 pm
Dhamma cannot be realized by a logical approach.
Possibly. But Dhamma can't be realised by an illogical approach, either; nor by Tibetan-style guru personality worship. :alien:

thang
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:37 pm

Re: Will you disregard Dukkha saying it is a later addition

Post by thang » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:42 am
thang wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:30 pm
Dhamma cannot be realized by a logical approach.
Possibly. But Dhamma can't be realised by an illogical approach, either; nor by Tibetan-style guru personality worship. :alien:
I agree.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Lankamed, NuanceOfSuchness and 92 guests