Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:50 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:53 pm 1) A technique of Samatha meditation
2) A nifty 3-minute mindfulness exercise, courtesy of Rewata Thero
3) How to pronounce kiṇāti like a shopaholic Sri Lankan post-doc researcher.
How was a multicultural setting relevant to learning these things, other than accidentally?
Had the setting not been multicultural, I would not have been able to learn them.
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:52 pmCould you provide some examples of what you mean by "Buddhist apologetics"?
Apologetics (from Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") is the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologetics
Listen to pretty much any Buddhist, and they have the same way of defending their doctrine, the same arguments.
This is "Asian" in that it originated there, but is perfectly accessible to Westerners.
It's "perfectly accessible" only to someone who already believes.
And what aspect of them is "alien"?
They are designed for someone who already believes.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:54 pmHad the setting not been multicultural, I would not have been able to learn them.
In your particular situation, yes, but not generally or necessarily.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by samseva »

binocular wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:20 pm I mean -- Ya'll do realize that from the perspective of a typical Asian Buddhist, a forum like this is horribly disrespectful of the Triple Gem, right?

In their eyes, we Westerners are probably worse than militant anti-Buddhist Islamic terorrists. Of course, it's not like the Asians will speak directly on these matters ...
So you can read the minds of people you haven't met?
binocular wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:33 pm
Bundokji wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:07 pmBut i still fail to understand why any of the above is considered a hindrance to understand Buddhism.
To understand that, I think one needs to understand that 1. Asian Buddhist apologetics is specific, and 2. the majority of Buddhist apologetics (East or West) is Asian.

Namely, Asian Buddhist apologetics is designed by and for people who are born and raised into traditionally Buddhist countries/cultures. That is, for people who have come to take for granted, from early childhood on, that 1. they know what the Buddha taught, and 2. that those teachings are true.

If we were a bit unkind, we could say that Asian Buddhist apologetics is an example of preaching to the choir.

As such, Asian Buddhist apologetics is alien to Westerners [...]
binocular, have you ever lived in an Asian country? Or are you just making all of this up out of thin air?
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by binocular »

samseva wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:50 pmSo you can read the minds of people you haven't met?
Jesus. Just listen to what they say. Listen to/read the OP, for example. It's quite revelatory to actually listen to/read what people say, you know. That way, you can discover what they think! It's a revolutionary idea, yes ...
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by samseva »

binocular wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:09 pm
samseva wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:50 pmSo you can read the minds of people you haven't met?
Jesus. Just listen to what they say. Listen to/read the OP, for example. It's quite revelatory to actually listen to/read what people say, you know. That way, you can discover what they think! It's a revolutionary idea, yes ...
Sorry, I fail to understand how you came about your comprehensive sociological understanding of Asians (in light of Westerners)—which comprises many billions of people, across multiple countries.

If you would have lived in an Asian country, it would have at least some weight. Hence, why I was asking.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:36 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:52 pmCould you provide some examples of what you mean by "Buddhist apologetics"?
Apologetics (from Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") is the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologetics
Listen to pretty much any Buddhist, and they have the same way of defending their doctrine, the same arguments.
Yes, I know what apologetics is, thanks. I'm asking for specific examples of Buddhist apologetics, to see if they are "alien". The Milindapanha is given as an example, and that is quite accessible to Westerners. So what are the other examples that are less accessible and truly "alien"? What are those ways of defending their doctrine, and why are they alien?
It's "perfectly accessible" only to someone who already believes.
Is it? What about non-believers like Gombrich, who claims to find Buddhism perfectly accessible as an "outsider"?

And how is this different from (say) Christian apologetics? Again, I can understand Augustine and C.S.Lewis without subscribing to their beliefs.

Give us a real example of "Buddhist apologetics" which is incomprehensible, and let's test it.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:37 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:54 pmHad the setting not been multicultural, I would not have been able to learn them.
In your particular situation, yes, but not generally or necessarily.
Nobody is claiming a general or necessary truth, are they? Of course, I could have learnt these things by other means; but I didn't. Multiculturalism can work like an exchange economy of ideas. The more people of different cultures one meets, the more chance there is of learning something new. My living in an extremely multicultural city meant that I was able to meet lots of different people and share ideas. It was wonderful!

For example, the monks in my local monastery teach meditation, give talks, allow people to attend puja, and are available for informal chats and advice. But thanks to Cambridge, I became kappiya for a monk who personally took responsibility for helping me with my practice, and who I served on a daily basis. I'm also transcribing his dhamma talks and putting them on You tube. That's a big opportunity to study and learn. That type of opportunity would not happen where I am living now.
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by sentinel »

StormBorn wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:24 pm
James Tan wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:36 am Many Westerners are very learned , very rational and very committed . But , question is , will their kindness and compassion as equal as their intelligence ?!
Emotional intelligence can be very poor among many Westerners especially regarding Path related positive qualities. They often try to reach nirvana, and later even claim to have advanced on the Path, without due regard to the behavioural improvement. That may be why sometimes psychologists even claim that the meditation seems to worsen the personality of a person. But, difficult to say Asians are any better either. As some of my Asian friends complaining that the 90% of the news is about murder, theft, rape, drugs, fraud, corruption, etc., and the religious circle appear to be more greedy and needy than even lay people :D

In the end it's an individual matter regardless of the locality as the Buddha said all the four noble truths are found in this fathom long body! :smile:
Learning dhamma is what I am getting at , not to compare East West.
We are talking about dhamma where cultivation of wisdom is one aspect and compassion is another . I don't know generally if majority of Westerners when practising dhamma do they only develops aspect of knowledges and lacking in developing of kindness, compassion and generosity/giving dana aspects ?
:quote:
You always gain by giving
User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by StormBorn »

James Tan wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:29 amI don't know generally if majority of Westerners when practising dhamma do they only develops aspect of knowledges and lacking in developing of kindness, compassion and generosity/giving dana aspects ?
To the eyes of the outsiders, Westerners used to be look like unkind and stingy. And, Asians for centuries appears to be very kind and generous, yet they hardly do so if not for the return interest of "merit". :jumping:

However, now even from the posts in this forum one can see that "because of merit virus" infested the West too. :rofl:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by sentinel »

StormBorn wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:02 am
James Tan wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:29 amI don't know generally if majority of Westerners when practising dhamma do they only develops aspect of knowledges and lacking in developing of kindness, compassion and generosity/giving dana aspects ?
To the eyes of the outsiders, Westerners used to be look like unkind and stingy. And, Asians for centuries appears to be very kind and generous, yet they hardly do so if not for the return interest of "merit". :jumping:

However, now even from the posts in this forum one can see that "because of merit virus" infested the West too. :rofl:
I don't know what you mean by outsider ?
Anyway , no one (almost as it seems) in this world would do something for worthless effort !
Even if you go for working because there is something in return (money) .

Expecting something in return should not be necessary source of unwholesomeness .
We practice dhamma in order to achieve liberation , that is something in return of the efforts of noble path.

You seems to be missing the compassionate aspect , which is important in the training . Buddha suggested one to practise the four brahma vihara .


:roll:
You always gain by giving
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:35 pmYes, I know what apologetics is, thanks. I'm asking for specific examples of Buddhist apologetics, to see if they are "alien". The Milindapanha is given as an example, and that is quite accessible to Westerners. So what are the other examples that are less accessible and truly "alien"? What are those ways of defending their doctrine, and why are they alien?
You pretend to think I lie.
It's impossible to have a conversation with someone who 1. does not listen, and 2. who is in a position of more power than myself.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:32 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:35 pmYes, I know what apologetics is, thanks. I'm asking for specific examples of Buddhist apologetics, to see if they are "alien". The Milindapanha is given as an example, and that is quite accessible to Westerners. So what are the other examples that are less accessible and truly "alien"? What are those ways of defending their doctrine, and why are they alien?
You pretend to think I lie.
It's impossible to have a conversation with someone who 1. does not listen, and 2. who is in a position of more power than myself.
I'm not pretending to think anything. I'm merely asking for an example of Buddhist apologetics. I'm listening, but not hearing one yet.

There is no issue of power here. You are free to respond to my invitation if you want, and there is no compulsion involved on either side. Even if it were the case, I normally have no problem in conversing with people who have more power than myself, and it's reasonable to assume that others don't either.
User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by StormBorn »

binocular wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:09 pm Jesus...
Guys! We have a mole! :spy:
:D
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Will Westerners ever catch Buddhism ?

Post by StormBorn »

James Tan wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:41 amI don't know what you mean by outsider ?
Because I was thinking about how my Asian friends saw Western Buddhists.
James Tan wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:41 amAnyway , no one (almost as it seems) in this world would do something for worthless effort !
Having a chanda (wholesome wanting) to walk the Middle Path and craving or stinginess in spiritual activities are not the same.
James Tan wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:41 amEven if you go for working because there is something in return (money) .

No argument there. But I think making an earning also can be done without being greedy. However, we were talking about kindness and generosity while practising the Dhamma.
James Tan wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:41 amExpecting something in return should not be necessary source of unwholesomeness . We practice dhamma in order to achieve liberation , that is something in return of the efforts of noble path.
Yes, depends on the intention. Right Intention in this case.
James Tan wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:41 amYou seems to be missing the compassionate aspect , which is important in the training . Buddha suggested one to practise the four brahma vihara .
Before he preached about brahmavihara, Buddha in his first sermon, talked about compassion under the Right Intention: Intention of renunciation (nekkhamma); Intention of non-ill-will (avyaapada); Intentions of non-harm (avihinsaa).

Skilfulness in the Right Intention would show an advanced level of emotional intelligence in a practitioner. That's why I mentioned in my previous post, "To the eyes of the outsiders, Westerners used to be look like unkind and stingy." If one is kind and compassionate, it's not easy to be stingy.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
Post Reply