Sotapanna and five precepts

[thepea]

Sorry I may not be following you and bhante correctly.
If I’m understanding a sotapanna has perfect sila, what would or could a sotapanna do that would necessitate a confession?

The Ratanasutta doesn't specify exactly how naughty it's possible for sotāpannas to be (a much debated subject on which Dhamma Wheel already has several threads). It says only: (1) that they are incapable of committing the "six great crimes", and (2) that any evil kammas of body, speech or mind that they do commit will not be concealed by them. The six great crimes are the usual five (patricide, matricide, etc.) together with taking refuge in an outside teacher.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/kp6

Yes this is my understanding, it just seemed you were expressing that a sotapanna must exhibit perfect precepts and then mention that they must confess. It struck me as strange that a perfect precept holder would have anything to confess. Seemed strange logic on your behalf?

[SarathW]

Good video on this subject.

[User1249x]

Unfortunately the discourses nowhere define "virtues dear to the noble ones". Does it refer to the 4 precepts (5 minus alcohol), 5 precepts, 10 unwholesome courses of action..., which one is supposed to keep "unbroken, untorn, unblemished..."?

Imo this is could be the definition;

From the Brahmajala Sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html

. And because he is free from misapprehension, he has realized within himself the state of perfect peace. Having understood as they really are the origin and the passing away of feelings, their satisfaction, their unsatisfactoriness, and the escape from them, the Tathāgata, bhikkhus, is emancipated through non-clinging.

37. "These are those dhammas, bhikkhus, that are deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, peaceful and sublime, beyond the sphere of reasoning, subtle, comprehensible only to the wise, which the Tathāgata, having realized for himself with direct knowledge, propounds to others; and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathāgata in accordance with reality would speak.

Imo speak here is meant speaking in praise in regard to virtue and runs alternate to this phrase;

"These, bhikkhus, are those trifling and insignificant matters, those minor details of mere moral virtue, that a worldling would refer to when speaking in praise of the Tathāgata.

Which occurs repeatedly in the Three Sections on Virtue.

Now as it actually is the text does not say that a worldling could rightly praise The Tathagata in accordance with reality, imo it is therefore reasonable to assume that a worldling does not comprehend these Dhammas and is unable to praise him for what he can not comprehend, so per definition these are virtues praised exclusively by Noble Ones.

[chownah]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
AN 4.28 PTS: A ii 27
Ariya-vamsa Sutta: The Discourse on the Traditions of the Noble Ones
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

These four traditions of the Noble Ones — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — are not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and are unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives and brahmans. Which four?

There is the case where a monk is content with any old robe cloth at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old robe cloth at all. He does not, for the sake of robe cloth, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting cloth, he is not agitated. Getting cloth, he uses it not tied to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old robe cloth at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is skillful, energetic, alert, and mindful. This, monks, is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the Noble Ones.

Furthermore, the monk is content with any old almsfood at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old almsfood at all. He does not, for the sake of almsfood, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting almsfood, he is not agitated. Getting almsfood, he uses it not tied to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old almsfood at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is skillful, energetic, alert, and mindful. This, monks, is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the Noble Ones.

Furthermore, the monk is content with any old lodging at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old lodging at all. He does not, for the sake of lodging, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting lodging, he is not agitated. Getting lodging, he uses it not tied to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old lodging at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is skillful, energetic, alert, and mindful. This, monks, is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the Noble Ones.

Furthermore, the monk finds pleasure and delight in developing (skillful mental qualities), finds pleasure and delight in abandoning (unskillful mental qualities). He does not, on account of his pleasure and delight in developing and abandoning, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is skillful, energetic, alert, and mindful. This, monks, is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the Noble Ones.

These are the four traditions of the Noble Ones — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — which are not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and are unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives and brahmans.

And furthermore, a monk endowed with these four traditions of the Noble Ones, if he lives in the east, conquers displeasure and is not conquered by displeasure. If he lives in the west... the north... the south, he conquers displeasure and is not conquered by displeasure. Why is that? Because the wise one endures both pleasure and displeasure.

This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, he said further:


Displeasure does not conquer the enlightened one.
Displeasure does not suppress him.
He conquers displeasure
because he endures it.

Having cast away all deeds:
who could obstruct him?
Like an ornament of finest gold:
Who is fit to find fault with him?
Even the Devas praise him,
even by Brahma is he praised.

chownah

[User1249x]

i had made a longer post but i lost it for it timed out but basically

they train themselves, openly and in private, in the rules of conduct, which are complete and perfect, spotless and pure, liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by mundane concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind;
and
in company with their brethren, preserve, openly and in private, the insight that is noble and liberating, and leads one who acts upon it to the utter destruction of suffering.

is parallel to;

Furthermore, a mendicant lives according to the view shared with their spiritual companions, both in public and in private. That view is noble and emancipating, and leads one who practices it to the complete ending of suffering. This warm-hearted quality makes for fondness and respect, conducing to inclusion, harmony, and unity, without quarreling.

These six warm-hearted qualities make for fondness and respect, conducing to inclusion, harmony, and unity, without quarreling. Of these six warm-hearted qualities, the chief is the view that is noble and emancipating, and leads one who practices it to the complete ending of suffering. It holds and binds everything together. It’s like a bungalow. The roof-peak is the chief point, which holds and binds everything together. In the same way, of these six warm-hearted qualities, the chief is the view that is noble and emancipating, and leads one who practices it to the complete ending of suffering. It holds and binds everything together.

Furthermore;

possessing which the noble disciple, should he so desire, can declare of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"
...
"And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.

So posessing

That view is noble and emancipating, and leads one who practices it to the complete ending of suffering.

They

train themselves, openly and in private, in the rules of conduct, which are complete and perfect, spotless and pure, liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by mundane concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind;

Therefore it would seem that any precept leading to concentration and liberation is a Virtue Dear to Noble Ones
Further it is also explained as training in accordance with the Patimokkha;

Ven. Ananda, taking Mahanama the Sakyan by the arm, led him to one side and said to him, "Mahanama, the Blessed One has talked both of the virtue of one who is in training [a stream-winner, a once-returner, or a non-returner] and of the virtue of one whose training is complete [an arahant]. He has talked both of the concentration of one who is in training and of the concentration of one whose training is complete. He has talked both of the discernment of one who is in training and of the discernment of one whose training is complete.

"And what is the virtue of one who is in training? There is the case where a monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the virtue of one who is in training.
...
"Then there is the disciple of the noble ones — thus consummate in virtue, thus consummate in concentration, thus consummate in discernment — who, through the ending of the mental fermentations, enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & made them manifest for himself right in the here & now.

"In this way, Mahanama, the Blessed One has talked both of the virtue of one who is in training and of the virtue of one whose training is complete. He has talked both of the concentration of one who is in training and of the concentration of one whose training is complete. He has talked both of the discernment of one who is in training and of the discernment of one whose training is complete."

The takeaway from this imo is that there is no particular set of rules that is kept* which is evident since as a lay person one may engage in sexual intercourse which is forbidden by the Patimokkha and this person is still said to be training in accordance with the Patimokkha.

*One could make a case for Ariyans always keeping the first precept for it is stated that Sotapanna's do not kill in the Dhammapada in the story about the Hunter's wife. However that case would be entirely based on that statement alone afaik.

[salayatananirodha]

I'm fairly convinced it's the five precepts, listed in mahanama sutta

[DooDoot]

Unfortunately the discourses nowhere define "virtues dear to the noble ones".

SN 55.13 appears to contain a definition:

They don’t have the unethical conduct that causes an uneducated ordinary person to be reborn—when their body breaks up, after death—in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

Yathārūpena ca kho, āvuso, dussīlyena samannāgato assutavā puthujjano kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ nirayaṃ upapajjati tathārūpassa dussīlyaṃ na hoti.

And they do have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones that causes an educated noble disciple to be reborn—when their body breaks up, after death—in a good place, a heavenly realm.

Yathārūpehi ca kho, āvuso, ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgato sutavā ariyasāvako kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugatiṃ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati tathārūpāni ariyakantāni sīlāni honti akhaṇḍāni … pe …

Their ethical conduct is loved by the noble ones, unbroken, unflawed, unblemished, untainted, liberating, praised by sensible people, not mistaken, and leading to immersion.

samādhisaṃvattanikāni.

https://suttacentral.net/sn55.13/en/sujato

Imo this is could be the definition...

Sounds too lofty and out of reach; particularly for the layperson who is often the subject of this teaching about "virtues" (such as in SN 55.54). By aiming far too high; I doubt any compelling progress will be made towards to goal, liberation and wonderful happiness of stream-entry.

A man searching for spirit-treasure
cannot find it, so he is praying.

A voice inside says, You were given
the intuition to shoot an arrow
and then to dig where it landed,
but you shot with all your archery skill.

You were told to draw the bow
with only a fraction of your ability.

What you are looking for
is nearer than the big vein
on your neck. Let the arrow drop.

Do not exhaust yourself
like the philosophers who strain to shoot
the high arcs of their thought-arrows.

The more skill you use,
the farther you will be
from what your deepest love wants.

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī

http://rumidays.blogspot.com/2010/07/tr ... rness.html

[User1249x]

Unfortunately the discourses nowhere define "virtues dear to the noble ones".

SN 55.13 appears to contain a definition:

They don’t have the unethical conduct that causes an uneducated ordinary person to be reborn—when their body breaks up, after death—in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

Yathārūpena ca kho, āvuso, dussīlyena samannāgato assutavā puthujjano kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ nirayaṃ upapajjati tathārūpassa dussīlyaṃ na hoti.

And they do have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones that causes an educated noble disciple to be reborn—when their body breaks up, after death—in a good place, a heavenly realm.

Yathārūpehi ca kho, āvuso, ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgato sutavā ariyasāvako kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugatiṃ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati tathārūpāni ariyakantāni sīlāni honti akhaṇḍāni … pe …

Their ethical conduct is loved by the noble ones, unbroken, unflawed, unblemished, untainted, liberating, praised by sensible people, not mistaken, and leading to immersion.

samādhisaṃvattanikāni.

For orderliness it would be good if you abstain from changing names in quotations and thus falsely attributing quotes.

Imo this is could be the definition...

Sounds too lofty and out of reach; particularly for the layperson who is often the subject of this teaching about "virtues" (such as in SN 55.54). By aiming far too high; I doubt any compelling progress will be made towards to goal, liberation and wonderful happiness of stream-entry.

I am pretty sure you did not read the posts for i concluded that it was likely a general statement about training in line with Patimokkha.

[User1249x]

I'm fairly convinced it's the five precepts, listed in mahanama sutta

A lot of people are but it has no basis in the Tipitaka.

[DooDoot]

A lot of people are but it has no basis in the Tipitaka.

I quoted the Tripitaka, namely, SN 55.13.

And they do have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones that causes an educated noble disciple to be reborn—when their body breaks up, after death—in a good place, a heavenly realm.

Yathārūpehi ca kho, āvuso, ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgato sutavā ariyasāvako kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugatiṃ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati tathārūpāni ariyakantāni sīlāni honti akhaṇḍāni … pe …

SN 55.13

SN 55.13 at most appears to refer to the 10 wholesome kammas thus the answer of Dhamma friend SalayatanaNirodha appeared much more accurate than yours. The ten wholesome (mundane) kammas are below:

These, Cunda, are the ten courses of skillful action. When a person is endowed with these ten courses of skillful action, then even if he gets up at the proper time from his bed and touches the earth, he is still pure. If he doesn't touch the earth, he is still pure. If he touches wet cow dung, he is still pure. If he doesn't touch wet cow dung, he is still pure. If he touches green grass... If he doesn't touch green grass... If he worships a fire... If he doesn't worship a fire... If he pays homage to the sun with clasped hands... If he doesn't pay homage to the sun with clasped hands... If he goes down into the water three times by nightfall... If he doesn't go down into the water three times by nightfall, he is still pure. Why is that? Because these ten courses of skillful action are pure and cause purity. Furthermore, as a result of being endowed with these ten courses of skillful action, [rebirth among] the devas is declared, [rebirth among] human beings is declared — that or any other good destination."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[Dhammanando]

Unfortunately the discourses nowhere define "virtues dear to the noble ones".

But nor do they leave us entirely in the dark, for they ascribe to them eight characteristics. The first four, starting with unbroken, all mean more or less the same thing. They tell us what it is in the manner of their observance that makes these virtues pleasing to Ariyans. It is that the manner of observance is immaculate.

As for the last four attributes, these provide the clue as to what the said virtues are. Just look through the suttas to see what things are described with one or more of these terms.

[samseva]

But nor do they leave us entirely in the dark, for they ascribe to them eight characteristics. The first four, starting with unbroken, all mean more or less the same thing. They tell us what it is in the manner of their observance that makes these virtues pleasing to Ariyans. It is that the manner of observance is immaculate.

As for the last four attributes, these provide the clue as to what the said virtues are. Just look through the suttas to see what things are described with one or more of these terms.

At SN 55.1 (which I think is the passage you are referring to), in the context of the qualities of a Stream-Enterer, 'virtues dear to the noble ones' is discussed:

He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones—unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration.
— SN 55.1 (transl., Bhikkhu Bodhi)

While the English translation leaves no room for uncertainty as to the level of observance of sīla for a Stream-Enterer, looking over the Pāḷi, however, gives a less perfect meaning. I came to the following conclusion:

In Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation, ‘the virtues dear to the noble ones’ might be misleading—in that it could instead describe qualities of which nobles ones hold dearly, or that Stream-Winners are the same as Ariyas in this way—since the PTS Pāli-English Dictionary translates ariyakantehi (ariyakanta) simply as ‘agreeable to the Ariyas’. Also, ‘the’ in ‘the virtues’ (‘the’ being “grouping”) also incorrectly misleads to possibly thinking that a Stream-Winner has all the qualities of Nobles Ones, or has all the qualities that are dear to Noble Ones.

Snp 2.1 further points out that, for a Stream-Enterer, perfect observance of sīla isn't always the case (that they can break sīla, but they would be incapable of concealing it):

Together with one’s achievement of vision
three things are discarded:
the view of the personal entity and doubt,
and whatever good behavior and observances there are.
One is also freed from the four planes of misery
and is incapable of doing six deeds.
This too is the sublime gem in the Sangha:
by this truth, may there be safety!

Although one does a bad deed
by body, speech, or mind,
one is incapable of concealing it;
such inability is stated for one who has seen the state.
— Snp 2.1 (transl., Bhikkhu Bodhi)

What are your thoughts on the matter, Bhante?

[User1249x]

Unfortunately the discourses nowhere define "virtues dear to the noble ones".

But nor do they leave us entirely in the dark, for they ascribe to them eight characteristics. The first four, starting with unbroken, all mean more or less the same thing. They tell us what it is in the manner of their observance that makes these virtues pleasing to Ariyans. It is that the manner of observance is immaculate.

As for the last four attributes, these provide the clue as to what the said virtues are. Just look through the suttas to see what things are described with one or more of these terms.

As far as i can tell there is no ground for going beyond stating that it refers to training in accordance with Patimokkha and not transgressing in matters fundamental to holy life.

Also the referent of the characteristics are the virtues themselves as i read it, the virtues are leading to concentration and are unblemished, as for unbroken it could well refer to an unbroken tradition but i am guessing.

I don't think it is a statement about the observance of Patimokkha being unbroken as in precepts are unbroken. As a matter of fact is there even any reference to precepts being something that can be "broken" in Pali because i think that is actually an entirely english notion but i am not sure.

Ratana Sutta... 9. ... even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence (in the realm of sense spheres).[6] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness
... 11. "Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

Furthermore Sotapanna always keeping such and such precept is certainly not a notion that was around at the Buddha's time, there is simply no evidence of it and there is evidence of the contrary.

Five impossibles, to wit, for an Arahant intentionally to take life, or to take what is not given, so as to amount to theft, or to commit sexual offences, or to lie deliberately, or to spend stored up treasures in worldly enjoyments, as in the days before he left the world.

The above is not about the Sotapanna and i am sure you are familiar with the below statement.

He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings.

Abhithanani; i. matricide, ii. patricide, iii. the murder of arahants (the Consummate Ones), iv. the shedding of the Buddha's blood, v. causing schism in the Sangha, and vi. pernicious false beliefs (niyata micca ditthi).

I will cite this as well for this has been stated

The Bhikkhus then asked the Buddha, "Venerable Sir, is the wife of the
hunter, who is a sotapanna, also not guilty of taking life, if she has been getting things like
nets, bows and arrows for her husband when he goes out hunting?" To this question her
Buddha answered, "Bhikkhus, the sotapannas do not kill, they do not wish others to get
killed. The wife of the hunter was only obeying her husband in getting things for him. Just as
the hand that has no wound is not affected by poison, so also, because she has no intention
to do evil, she is not doing any evil."

I think there is simply no excuse to go any further and nothing more can be inferred from the Tipitaka as far as i know.

[DooDoot]

But nor do they leave us entirely in the dark...

Venerable. Are you saying my reliance on SN 55.13 (and then linking it to AN 10.176) was insufficient? Thank you.

And they do have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones that causes an educated noble disciple to be reborn—when their body breaks up, after death—in a good place, a heavenly realm.

SN 55.13

[salayatananirodha]

'Housefather, when the fivefold guilty dread[1]
is allayed in the Ariyan disciple
and he is possessed
of the four limbs of stream-winning,
and has well seen
and well penetrated
the Ariyan Method
by insight,
he may, if he so desire,
himself proclaim thus of himself:

'I am one who has cut off the doom of Purgatory,
of rebirth in the womb of an animal,
in the realm of ghosts;
cut off is the Waste,
the Ill-bourn,
the Downfall.

A Stream-winner am I,
one not doomed to the Downfall,
assured,
bound for enlightenment.'

then, for example

Now, housefather,
what is the fivefold guilty dread
that is allayed in him?

It is that guilty dread, housefather,
which he who kills
begets in this same visible state,
as a result of his killing;
it is that guilty dread
about the life to come,
which he who kills begets;
also that mental suffering
and dejection
which he experiences.

By abstaining from killing
he begets no guilty dread
in this same visible state
nor for the life to come;
he experiences no mental suffering
and dejection.

Thus in him who abstains from killing
that guilty dread is allayed.

Rest of the five precepts

“In what way, Bhante, is one a lay follower?”

“When, Mahānāma, one has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saṅgha, in that way one is a lay follower.”

“In what way, Bhante, is a lay follower virtuous?”

“When, Mahānāma, a lay follower abstains from the destruction of life, from taking what is not given, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, and from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness, in that way a lay follower is virtuous.”

This here corresponds with the limbs and the virtues, and I infer on this basis that these are those virtues. Your sutta about the six actions causes me pause, but I also don't see this issue another way.

"A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Stream-Winner, if the Blessed One has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be Stream-Winner... assured of enlightenment! Why, Sarakaani failed in his training and took to drink!"

Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death.'

Note that I altered font of the word 'training'. If the training there is not the five precepts, also known as training rules, then what can it be? Walshe's footnote in my opinion is insufficient. Remembering there is no internal contradiction within the buddha's teaching, we have a reasonable explanation, but if anyone perceives a flaw in my step-by-step analysis, then please share.