Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thang
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:24 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:19 pm
That doesn't comply with Vinaya, as laid down by the Buddha does it? Who created this bureaucracy? What is the basis. And what is the motivation?
It is a lay affair, man. Issuing IDs is an affair of the government. The Buddha doesn't impose vinaya pitaka for lay people.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

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cappuccino
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by cappuccino » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:30 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:19 pm
And what is the motivation?
In helping others, one helps oneself. In hindering others, one hinders oneself.

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Mr Man
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by Mr Man » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:44 pm

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:24 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:19 pm
That doesn't comply with Vinaya, as laid down by the Buddha does it? Who created this bureaucracy? What is the basis. And what is the motivation?
It is a lay affair, man. Issuing IDs is an affair of the government. The Buddha doesn't impose vinaya pitaka for lay people.
So your objection to Bhikkhuni ordination is lay bureaucracy?

thang
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:48 pm

Let's move on to the topic.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

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Mr Man
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by Mr Man » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:53 pm

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:48 pm
Let's move on to the topic.
Thang, you seem to object to Bhikkhuni ordination. Why is that? What is the basis to your objection? Is your objection based on Vinaya?

thang
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:09 pm

Supporting modern bhikkhuni ordination is objecting sangha.
Even in case it is approved by the sangha, encouraging bhikkhuni ordination seems not good according to the Sutta and Vinaya.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

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cappuccino
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by cappuccino » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:15 pm

It's good for women

therefore it's good

2600htz
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by 2600htz » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:22 pm

Hello:

I think that when the Buddha accepted that females could ordain, it was like breaking a seal, and he was pretty clear about this.
But he was ok with that, he traded longevity of the true dhamma for diversity. And again, he was ok with that.

Yes, females can become arahants. And yes, feminism probably will cause a cascade of events that will deteriorate the dhamma, maybe now, maybe 5.000 years later. But thats just the way things are. If the Sangha discourages Bhikkhunis to ordain, it will just cause that some particular females push harder and make more damage. The eight principles of respect are the north, not the discouragement.

Regards.

thang
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:49 pm

2600htz wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:22 pm
he was ok with that. Yes, females can become arahants.
It is obvious.
2600htz wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:22 pm
And yes, feminism probably will cause a cascade of events that will deteriorate the dhamma, ..
Yes.
2600htz wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:22 pm
If the Sangha discourages Bhikkhunis to ordain, it will just cause that some particular females push harder and make more damage.
No.
According to the Buddha Vacana, the Buddha Sasana disappears due to the damage done by insiders not by outsiders.
If sangha ordain feminists, then an ordained feminist will do more damage.
2600htz wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:22 pm
... some particular females push harder and make more damage.
This is happening at the moment because some bhikkhus have ordained feminists.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

2600htz
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by 2600htz » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:41 pm

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:49 pm
2600htz wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:22 pm
he was ok with that. Yes, females can become arahants.
It is obvious.
2600htz wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:22 pm
And yes, feminism probably will cause a cascade of events that will deteriorate the dhamma, ..
Yes.
2600htz wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:22 pm
If the Sangha discourages Bhikkhunis to ordain, it will just cause that some particular females push harder and make more damage.
No.
According to the Buddha Vacana, the Buddha Sasana disappears due to the damage done by insiders not by outsiders.
If sangha ordain feminists, then an ordained feminist will do more damage.
2600htz wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:22 pm
... some particular females push harder and make more damage.
This is happening at the moment because some bhikkhus have ordained feminists.
Hello:

But under what argument would you ban a feminist from ordaining?.

Regards.

thang
Posts: 95
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:50 pm

2600htz wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:41 pm
But under what argument would you ban a feminist from ordaining?.
We can't ban anyone from doing anything.
But we can conclude that the people who objecting the sangha are bad.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

befriend
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by befriend » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:51 am

Even if buddha was reluctant to ordain women, after ananda reminded him that gotami was his wet nurse and helped be his maternal caregiver buddha said under 8 conditions a woman can ordain so we should always fall in line with what buddha decides.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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StormBorn
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by StormBorn » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:54 am

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:51 pm
Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination
To me it seems discouragement comes from those who,
1)Honestly follow the tradition believing that the bhikkhuni lineage already died (they may or may not have a secondary reason). OR
2)Has a pure hate or an inferiority attitude towards females as with some brahmins of India.

Encouragement comes from those who,
1)Honestly wishes to help females out of kindness thinking they also deserves the opportunity as with the monks. OR
2)Has a impure hidden intention of female association via the female ordination movement. Why I said this: some monks already expressed that their friendly nuns complaining about those monks who spearheaded the revival in Asia even asking for sex-bribes.
DNS wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:22 pm
Some modern Buddhists support bhikkhuni ordination and some oppose it. It centers more around legalistic concerns about the double-ordination ceremony since the original bhikkhuni Sangha died out in year 1017, not about if bhikkhunis were ever legitimate or not.
According to this article Master Hong Yi (1880-1942) believed, during the year 1279 CE (Song Dynasty) and 700 years forward monks already conducting high ordination not according to the proper way as it already gone through many changes and only one piece of vinaya karma left, and that also with one school. After an extensive research, he concluded monk lineage in China already broken, and when that happened what to talk about an unbroken nun lineage.

He also found, from 25-249 CE there were Buddhist monks in China but they didn't even had 3 refuge and Vinaya, but only shaved their heads. Beginning from 249 CE, the monks from India brought the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya, but at the Song Dynasty (1279 CE) the Zen school became popular giving less value for Vinaya which made the Vinaya deteriorate.

Master Quyi Zhixu (1599-1655) also already believed the above view regarding the broken lineage.
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:15 pm
It's good for women

therefore it's good
They are human too... therefore it's good...
Mr Man wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:06 pm
Is this supported by Vinaya? Isn't it Vinaya that should administer monastic affairs?
In Sri Lanka the monastic situation getting worst. Some extremist monks even creating a quandary by asking the government to give the head monks of the sects state powers so they can disrobe, fine or even imprison monks/nuns if decided so (even for unfair reasons). In Sri Lanka self-ordained monks/nuns are illegal by law which is why the government can't issue clergy IDs for them. The bhikkhuni ordinations done with no approval by the head monks of the three sects and therefore not accepted as legally valid by the government. They have an ordinance regarding the monks called "Buddhist Temporalities Ordinance No. 19 of 1931".
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:58 am

16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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DooDoot
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:07 am

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:51 pm
You yourself decide who knows Dhamma well.
My opinion is the issue is unrelated to "Dhamma". In my opinion, the issues are about more practical worldly matters. For example, in Thailand, hundreds of thousands of men are ordained for social, cultural &/or superstitious reasons. These men must be housed, fed and administered. Already, this task is very difficult to administer, due to cost, corruption and defilement. In Thailand, there would be so many more problems if thousands of women ordained for superstitious reasons; such as belief in making merit for rebirth/reincarnation. I think the primary questions include: "Can the bhikkhuni live without danger? Can the bhikkhuni be housed & fed? Can the bhikkhuni uphold the Vinaya & Garudhamma?"

I like this video (even though the Feminist probably gnash their teeth over the conformity):


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