Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

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thang
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Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:51 pm

Bhikkhuni Ordination:

Discouraged by : The Blessed One Buddha, The Greatest Ascetic Maha Kassapa Thero, All the Arahants of The First Council except Ananda Thero
Encouraged by : Maha Pajapati Gotami Theri (before arahantship), The Greatest Scholar Ananda Thero (before arahantship)

Modern Days:

Discouraged by : All the Supreme Leaders of Sangha, Vast Majority of Sangha, Ajahn Chah Group Sangha
Encouraged by : Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Sujato, Several Western Bhikkhus, Self Proclaimed Bhikkhunis, Modern Feminists

You yourself decide who knows Dhamma well.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by JamesTheGiant » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:18 pm

I suggest you follow the Buddha. He ordained women, and supported the ordination of women. True, at the beginning he was reluctant, but after some persuading by Ananda he became a strong supporter of bhikkhunis:

Mara once appeared before the Buddha and asked him to pass from the world because too many people were becoming liberated. The Buddha responded, “I will not pass away until I have established a fourfold sangha,
That's (1) Monks (2) Nuns (3) Laymen (4) Laywomen to make a fourfold sangha.

Follow what the Buddha said, don't follow other monks and modern sangha officials.

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DNS
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by DNS » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:22 pm

It's not as simple as that outline you made. The Buddha did support bhikkhuni ordination. He did grant the going forth to Maha-Pajapati and she became an arahant in the saffron robes.

Some modern Buddhists support bhikkhuni ordination and some oppose it. It centers more around legalistic concerns about the double-ordination ceremony since the original bhikkhuni Sangha died out in year 1017, not about if bhikkhunis were ever legitimate or not.

thang
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:46 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:18 pm
He ordained women, and supported the ordination of women.
Yes I agree. He supported after an initial reluctance.
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:18 pm
True, at the beginning he was reluctant, but after some persuading by Ananda he became a strong supporter of bhikkhunis:
We can't say he became a 'strong' supporter. The Buddha will not become a strong supporter for a mission which he initially reluctant.
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:18 pm
The Buddha responded, “I will not pass away until I have established a fourfold sangha,
That's (1) Monks (2) Nuns (3) Laymen (4) Laywomen to make a fourfold sangha.
Yes. Bhikkhunis were part of fourfold sangha. It's not the case here. I'm talking about encouragement and discouragement.
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:18 pm
Follow what the Buddha said,
We should consider everything the Blessed One said about women. Not only one thing.
Eg: Initial discouragement, Later approval, Imposing garu dhamma, Stating the sasanaa will be half cut, Refusal of equal status by Gotami theri.
And we should consider ancient Arahant's behavior.
Eg. Mahakassapa thero and the first sangha council's allegation on initiating bhikkhuni ordination, Ananda thero's defence
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:18 pm
don't follow other monks and modern sangha officials.
You can't ignore other monks or modern sangha completely. If we do so we have to ignore modern bhikkhuni supporting monks before we ignore other sangha.
DNS wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:22 pm
It's not as simple as that outline you made. The Buddha did support bhikkhuni ordination. He did grant the going forth to Maha-Pajapati and she became an arahant in the saffron robes.
Answered above.
DNS wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:22 pm
It centers more around legalistic concerns about the double-ordination ceremony since the original bhikkhuni Sangha died out in year 1017, not about if bhikkhunis were ever legitimate or not.
Here I'm talking about encouragement and discouragement. Not about their legality.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

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DNS
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by DNS » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:55 pm

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:46 pm
Here I'm talking about encouragement and discouragement. Not about their legality.
But that is the reason for their discouragement; i.e., the legality issue. Those opposed (discourage) to the bhikkhuni ordinations going on right now say that it is not valid since there was no double-ordination ceremony. There are double-ordination ceremonies going on right now, but they argue that the original double ceremony (that revived the bhikkhunis, back in 1996-2002) used Mahayana nuns (ordination by nuns, followed by monks from Theravada), so that the subsequent ordinations are invalid (in their opinion) due to the Theravada nuns not having a proper ordination.

Those in favor (encourage) bhikkhuni ordination argue that this is what the Buddha wanted, there was always the wish for a four-fold Sangha and there is no problem with using the Mahayana nuns in the beginning since they can trace their lineage at least as far back as Dharmaguptaka (which was one of the 18 to 20 early schools with Theravada).

thang
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:12 pm

If there is an issue about legality and if the sangha don't accept the bhiikhuni ordination, why does someone re-initiate bhiikhuni ordination by being disobedient to sangha decisions? We can see clear feminism in it.
DNS wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:55 pm
Those in favor (encourage) bhikkhuni ordination argue that ... there is no problem with using the Mahayana nuns in the beginning since they can trace their lineage at least as far back as Dharmagupta.
Why does someone need to keep arguing with sangha ?
Why does someone need to keep doing what sangha asked them not to do ?
This is a clear indicator of opposing sangha.

Will a person opposing sangha attain nibbana?
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

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DNS
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by DNS » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:18 pm

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:12 pm
If there is an issue about legality and if the sangha don't accept the bhiikhuni ordination, why does someone re-initiate bhiikhuni ordination by being disobedient to sangha decisions? We can see clear feminism in it.
We don't have a Pope of Theravada Buddhism. Some monasteries and monks perform ordinations of bhikkhunis and some do not.

thang
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:26 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:18 pm
We don't have a Pope of Theravada Buddhism. Some monasteries and monks perform ordinations of bhikkhunis and some do not.
The absence of a single leader becomes an issue only if some theravada sangha nikayas accept bhikkhuni ordination.
But there is no theravada nikaya in this world which accepts the bhikkhuni ordination.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

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cappuccino
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by cappuccino » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:33 pm

I would think blocking anyone, male or female,
is evil.

thang
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:37 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:33 pm
I would think blocking anyone, male or female, is evil.
Definitely. Any Buddhist knows blocking is unwholesome.
But this is not about blocking. This is about whether we encourage or not.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

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DNS
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by DNS » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:49 pm

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:26 pm
DNS wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:18 pm
We don't have a Pope of Theravada Buddhism. Some monasteries and monks perform ordinations of bhikkhunis and some do not.
The absence of a single leader becomes an issue only if some theravada sangha nikayas accept bhikkhuni ordination.
But there is no theravada nikaya in this world which accepts the bhikkhuni ordination.
Bhante Henepola Gunaratana regularly performs bhikkhuni ordinations and he is the head of Siam Nikaya, North America region. And several monasteries throughout Sri Lanka ordain bhikkhunis, so I imagine most or all do so with the approval of their Nikaya ordination lineage.

thang
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:03 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:49 pm
Bhante Henepola Gunaratana regularly performs bhikkhuni ordinations and he is the head of Siam Nikaya, North America region. And several monasteries throughout Sri Lanka ordain bhikkhunis, so I imagine most or all do so with the approval of their Nikaya ordination lineage.
They do it without their nikaya's approval.
island.lk
"We have to abide by the decision of Mahanayakes’ – Commissioner General

"I am aware that there are issues, but with due respect to the wishes of the three nikayas, we cannot accord recognition to them as Bhikkhunis", says Nimal Kotawalagedara, Commissioner General of Buddhist Affairs.

.. as a Theravada Buddhist country, Sri Lanka considers the Bhikkhunis Order defunct after the Polonnaruwa era, he elaborated.

"As the Buddhist Affairs department, we have to abide by the decisions of the Mahanayakes of the three Nikayas, who consider the Bhikkhuni Order not restorable after it disappeared during ancient times", he said.

"There may be pros and cons, but we have to abide by decisions of the Mahanayakes", the Commissioner General added.
Last edited by thang on Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

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Mr Man
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by Mr Man » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:06 pm

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:03 pm
DNS wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:49 pm
Bhante Henepola Gunaratana regularly performs bhikkhuni ordinations and he is the head of Siam Nikaya, North America region. And several monasteries throughout Sri Lanka ordain bhikkhunis, so I imagine most or all do so with the approval of their Nikaya ordination lineage.
They do it without their nikaya's approval.
island.lk
"I am aware that there are issues, but with due respect to the wishes of the three nikayas, we cannot accord recognition to them as Bhikkhunis", says Nimal Kotawalagedara, Commissioner General of Buddhist Affairs.

.. as a Theravada Buddhist country, Sri Lanka considers the Bhikkhunis Order defunct after the Polonnaruwa era, he elaborated.

"As the Buddhist Affairs department, we have to abide by the decisions of the Mahanayakes of the three Nikayas, who consider the Bhikkhuni Order not restorable after it disappeared during ancient times", he said.

"There may be pros and cons, but we have to abide by decisions of the Mahanayakes", the Commissioner General added.
Is this supported by Vinaya? Isn't it Vinaya that should administer monastic affairs?

thang
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:15 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:06 pm
Is this supported by Vinaya? Isn't it Vinaya that should administer monastic affairs?
Out of the topic question.
Lay officials cannot issue identity cards for the self proclaimed bhikkhunis who are not recognized by the sangha.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

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Mr Man
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by Mr Man » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:19 pm

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:15 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:06 pm
Is this supported by Vinaya? Isn't it Vinaya that should administer monastic affairs?
Out of the topic question.
Lay officials cannot issue identity cards for the self proclaimed bhikkhunis who are not recognized by the sangha.
That doesn't comply with Vinaya, as laid down by the Buddha does it? Who created this bureaucracy? What is the basis. And what is the motivation?

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