Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
James Tan
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by James Tan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:19 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:14 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:00 pm
I don't know about your thinking but for me I would say both . I visited so many times to hospital so I guess death is a very painful thing that I want to avoid if possible .
By "death is a very painful thing," did you mean as a physical pain or a mental pain (perhaps the pain of leaving what's known and gathered)?
Have you ever seen people dies especially in agony because of serious illness ?
:reading:

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StormBorn
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by StormBorn » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:49 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:19 pm
Have you ever seen people dies especially in agony because of serious illness ?
I have never seen a death except in some movies where they get shot. In a serious illness, there's already the pain of illness, but not sure in a normal death whether there's an aspect of mental or physical pain.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

chownah
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by chownah » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:44 am

Chownah wrote: Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth but considering the idea that you might die next week would you be most concerned with the pain that would be involved or would the more potent suffering come from mental anguish?
James Tan replied:
James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:00 pm
I don't know about your thinking but for me I would say both . I visited so many times to hospital so I guess death is a very painful thing that I want to avoid if possible .
I think that our line of inquiry is an important one for buddhists as shown when bikkhu bodhi indicates:
The first noble truth, the truth of suffering, is to be fully understood: the task it assigns us is that of full understanding. A hallmark of the noble ones is that they do not flow along thoughtlessly with the stream of life, but endeavor to comprehend existence from within, as honestly and thoroughly as possible. For us, too, it is necessary to reflect upon the nature of our life. We must attempt to fathom the deep significance of an existence bounded on one side by birth and on the other by death, and subject in between to all the types of suffering detailed by the Buddha in his discourses.
Many people know that they have a disease and that they will die within some fairly short length of time unless treated. They know that there will be unpleasant bodily feelings including bodily pain at their passing and they know that the worst of the painful bodily feelings can be made manageable with pain killers etc. They know that if they undergo treatements they will live longer but they also know that the treatments will be just as full of bodily pain (sometimes more) than the actual event of death....many (actually most) of these people decide to undergo the treatments. The result is that they go through a bodily painful experience many times (weekly or monthly etc. depending on the treatment) for perhaps years so that they can delay dieing. They ask to undergo painful bodily experiences at frequent intervals on an ongoing basis inorder to prolong their life......they are, so it seems, choosing bodily pain over death.

It really seems that for these people bodily pain is not nearly as bad as death. Would you choose to undergo bodily painful treatments to delay death?......Would you undergo a bodily painful surgery to regain your health and avoid death.....or would you just ask for some morphine to avoid the pain and die from the lack of surgery?

I don't want to put words in your mouth but what I am trying to do is to point out that in fact, for most people, it is not the bodily pain which MIGHT accompany death which is their main concern.....it is the LOSS OF LIFE that is their biggest source of suffering.......
chownah

James Tan
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by James Tan » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:29 am

Please tell me if Buddha and arahant still have mental fabrication or not ?
:reading:

chownah
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:09 am

I don't know.....they might.....why do you ask?
chownah

James Tan
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by James Tan » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:46 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:09 am
I don't know.....they might.....why do you ask?
chownah
In the paticasamuppada cessation ,
Ignorance follow by mental fabrication , therefore , if ignorance ends mental fabrication ends.
Bodily pains experience possible only through mental fabrication as said . But , an arahant abandoned ignorance led to abandoning of mental fabrication . Since no more mental fabrication how is it possible experience pains for an arahant .
:reading:

auto
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by auto » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:14 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
if i smell i get used to the smell at some point, sense media acquired that smell. It is possible that 'getting used to' is birth. Then also grasping with your hand something and if there is sense of attainment then that is birth too.
So then death is when that item is not useful anymore, ageing is slowly going towards rockbottom till complete abandoning what is death. Body death is when it is not useable anymore.

I wonder if winning money is birth too if there is gain also getting paid after doing work.

chownah
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:13 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:46 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:09 am
I don't know.....they might.....why do you ask?
chownah
In the paticasamuppada cessation ,
Ignorance follow by mental fabrication , therefore , if ignorance ends mental fabrication ends.
Bodily pains experience possible only through mental fabrication as said . But , an arahant abandoned ignorance led to abandoning of mental fabrication . Since no more mental fabrication how is it possible experience pains for an arahant .
Do remember that DO is how it works for people who are steeped in ignorance and it seems that it does not apply to arahants. I'll make a guess here and suggest that DO is talking about mental fabrications which arise in the non-arahant and perhaps an arahant has mental fabrications but since they arise without ignorance, craving, etc., then they don't spread their poison. Another way to look at this is that ignorance causes us to grasp all of the things mentioned in DO wrongly but (in the case of an arahant) if it is grasped rightly then no suffering arises.

But really it is probably pointless to conjecture about how things are for arahants since their situation is so extremely different from ours.....seems like the buddha didn't really talk about how this stuff was for arahants.....
chownah

auto
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by auto » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:17 pm

DO will work the same, what or who you are depends on how you get released; that you don't rely on the causes of being to arise.

Ordinary person who is not instructed by noble ones will get away from pain through sensual pleasure.

auto
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by auto » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:41 pm

auto wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:17 pm
DO will work the same, what or who you are depends on how you get released; that you don't rely on the causes of being to arise.

Ordinary person who is not instructed by noble ones will get away from pain through sensual pleasure.
https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors ... el277.html
"The knowledge of destruction with respect to destruction has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge of destruction? 'Emancipation' should be the reply.
"Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.
"Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.
"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply.
"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.
"Concentration, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for concentration? 'Happiness' should be the reply.
"Happiness, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for happiness? 'Tranquillity' should be the reply.
"Tranquillity, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for tranquillity? 'Rapture' should be the reply.
"Rapture, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for rapture? 'Joy' should be the reply.
"Joy, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for joy? 'Faith' should be the reply.
"Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply.
"Suffering, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for suffering? 'Birth' should be the reply.
that above is what is after birth, so the typical DO is below.
"And what is the supporting condition for birth?. 'Existence' should be the reply.
"What is the supporting condition for existence? 'Clinging' should be the reply.
"What is the supporting condition for clinging? 'Craving' should be the reply.
"What is the supporting condition for craving? 'Feeling' should be the reply.
"What is the supporting condition for feeling? 'Contact' should be the reply.
"What is the supporting condition for contact? 'The sixfold sense base' should be the reply.
"What is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base? 'Mentality-materiality' should be the reply.
"What is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality? 'Consciousness' should be the reply.
"What is the supporting condition for consciousness? 'Kamma formations' should be the reply.
"Kamma formations, monks, also have a supporting condition, I say, they do not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for kamma formations? 'Ignorance' should be the reply.

hmm weird is that the Upanisa Sutta
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

is a pit different structured, i kind of dislike the form there, the idea what is here:
"The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is the prerequisite for the knowledge of ending? Release, it should be said. Release has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Dispassion... Disenchantment... Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present... Concentration... Pleasure... Serenity... Rapture... Joy... Conviction... Stress... Birth... Becoming... Clinging... Craving... Feeling... Contact... The six sense media... Name-&-form... Consciousness... Fabrications... Fabrications have their prerequisite, I tell you. They are not without a prerequisite. And what is their prerequisite?Ignorance, it should be said.

it is too easily missed, overlooked.

auto
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by auto » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:51 pm

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN3_34.html
“Any action performed with greed—born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: Wherever one’s selfhood [atta-bhāva] turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.
“Any action performed with non-greed—born of non-greed, caused by non-greed, originating from non-greed: When greed is gone, that action is thus abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.
non greed,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what are the roots of what is skillful? Lack of greed is a root of what is skillful, lack of aversion is a root of what is skillful, lack of delusion is a root of what is skillful. These are termed the roots of what is skillful.
And what is skillful? Abstaining from taking life is skillful, abstaining from taking what is not given... from sexual misconduct... from lying... from abusive speech... from divisive tale-bearing... abstaining from idle chatter is skillful. Lack of covetousness... lack of ill will... right views are skillful. These things are termed skillful.
Non-greed is root or condition for 'abstaining from taking life' etc. Any action what has that root means action based on greed is abandoned, not relied on.
What is it for anyway? its for to being to arise. Action performed on greed will result in selfhood and rebirth. Action performed with non-greed the being arises not as selfhood but as a thing what doesn't change or develop, nonbirth.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

greed abandoned
"When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.
birth abandoned
"When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned.
"Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release."
awareness releases by abstaining… discernment is,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"One sees with right discernment that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one is — through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance — released from what has come into being.
you get released from birth, otherwise the awareness would have arisen as selfhood to experience the action ripening.

pegembara
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by pegembara » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:07 am

[The bandit chief:]
Those who
for the sake of sacrifice
for the sake of wealth
we have killed in the past,
against their will
have trembled & babbled
from fear.
But you —
you show no fear;
your complexion brightens.
Why don't you lament
in the face of what's greatly to be feared

[Ven. Adhimutta:]
There are no painful mental states, chieftain,
in one without longing.
In one whose fetters are ended,
all fears are overcome.
With the ending of [craving]
the guide to becoming,
when phenomena are seen
for what they are,
then just as in the laying down of a burden,
there's no fear in death.

I've lived well the holy life,
well-developed the path.
Death holds no fear for me.
It's like the end of a disease.....


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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