Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

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James Tan
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Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by James Tan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:25 pm

Hello friends ,

According to Buddha's teaching life is suffering .
Referring to paticasamuppada process , birth , aging and death are suffering .



https://suttacentral.net/an10.65/en/nizamis

“Now, what, friend Sāriputta, is the pleasant, and what is the painful?”

“Rebirth, friend, is painful; non-rebirth is pleasant. When, friend, there is rebirth, this pain is to be expected: cold and heat, hunger and thirst, excrement and urine, contact with fire, contact with punishment, contact with weapons, and anger caused by meeting and associating with relatives and friends. When, friend, there is rebirth, this pain is to be expected.


https://suttacentral.net/snp3.8/en/mills

Here’s the life of mortals,
wretched and brief,
its end unknown,
to dukkha joined.

There’s no means that those
who’re born will never die.
Reached decay, then death:
the law for beings all.

As with what’s ripe
there’s always fear of falling,
so for mortals born
there’s always fear of death.
:reading:

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pitakele
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by pitakele » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:57 pm

The suffering of punabbhava (Udayasutta SN 7.12)
Again and again, oppressing and intimidating;
the idiot is reborn again and again.
Punappunaṃ kilamati phandati ca,
Punappunaṃ gabbhamupeti mando.

Again and again, you’re reborn and die;
again and again, you get carried to a charnel ground.
Punappunaṃ jāyati mīyati ca,
Punappunaṃ sivathikaṃ haranti;

But when they’ve gained the path for no further rebirth,
one of vast wisdom is not reborn again and again.
Maggañca laddhā apunabbhavāya,
Na punappunaṃ jāyati bhūripañño.

https://suttacentral.net/sn7.12/en/sujato
This translation is okay, lthough it could be improved in places by using third instead of second person
now here = nowhere

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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:25 pm

James Tan wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:25 pm
https://suttacentral.net/an10.65/en/nizamis

“Now, what, friend Sāriputta, is the pleasant, and what is the painful?”

“Rebirth (abhinibbatti), friend, is painful; non-rebirth is pleasant. When, friend, there is rebirth, this pain is to be expected: cold and heat, hunger and thirst, excrement and urine, contact with fire, contact with punishment, contact with weapons, and anger caused by meeting and associating with relatives and friends. When, friend, there is rebirth, this pain is to be expected.
The above might be a mistranslation because there are suttas that say cold and heat, hunger and thirst, excrement and urine, contact with fire, contact with punishment, contact with weapon, etc, can be endured/tolerated without suffering.
And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, endures. He tolerates cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words & bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to tolerate these things do not arise for him when he tolerates them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think an examination of the suttas will find the word "abhinibbatti" does not mean "rebirth", such as below by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
The arising, continuation, production (abhinibbatti) & manifestation in respect to the eye is the arising of suffering.

SN 26.1
It seems "the eye" is obviously not something that is "reborn". How can "the eye" or "ear" or "tongue" be "reborn"? Religions teach doctrines that the "soul" or "consciousness" is "reborn". Below is Bhikkhu Sujato's translation, which sounds very illogical to me:
“Mendicants, the arising, continuation, rebirth, and manifestation of the eye is the arising of suffering, the continuation of diseases, and the manifestation of old age and death.

“Yo kho, bhikkhave, cakkhussa uppādo ṭhiti abhinibbatti pātubhāvo, dukkhasseso uppādo, rogānaṃ ṭhiti, jarāmaraṇassa pātubhāvo.

https://suttacentral.net/sn26.1/en/sujato

James Tan
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by James Tan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:24 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:25 pm
James Tan wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:25 pm
https://suttacentral.net/an10.65/en/nizamis

“Now, what, friend Sāriputta, is the pleasant, and what is the painful?”

“Rebirth (abhinibbatti), friend, is painful; non-rebirth is pleasant. When, friend, there is rebirth, this pain is to be expected: cold and heat, hunger and thirst, excrement and urine, contact with fire, contact with punishment, contact with weapons, and anger caused by meeting and associating with relatives and friends. When, friend, there is rebirth, this pain is to be expected.
The above might be a mistranslation because there are suttas that say cold and heat, hunger and thirst, excrement and urine, contact with fire, contact with punishment, contact with weapon, etc, can be endured/tolerated without suffering.
And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, endures. He tolerates cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words & bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to tolerate these things do not arise for him when he tolerates them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think an examination of the suttas will find the word "abhinibbatti" does not mean "rebirth", such as below by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
The arising, continuation, production (abhinibbatti) & manifestation in respect to the eye is the arising of suffering.

SN 26.1
It seems "the eye" is obviously not something that is "reborn". How can "the eye" or "ear" or "tongue" be "reborn"? Religions teach doctrines that the "soul" or "consciousness" is "reborn". Below is Bhikkhu Sujato's translation, which sounds very illogical to me:
“Mendicants, the arising, continuation, rebirth, and manifestation of the eye is the arising of suffering, the continuation of diseases, and the manifestation of old age and death.

“Yo kho, bhikkhave, cakkhussa uppādo ṭhiti abhinibbatti pātubhāvo, dukkhasseso uppādo, rogānaṃ ṭhiti, jarāmaraṇassa pātubhāvo.

https://suttacentral.net/sn26.1/en/sujato
If something is not painful then why you need to ENDURE in the first place ?
Painful feeling is something not nice and no one wants it.
That’s means it is causing suffering bodily at least . Even Buddha and arahant unable to endure extreme pains .
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:36 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:24 am
Even Buddha and arahant unable to endure extreme pains .
Clinging to one wrong idea leads to another wrong idea.
28. But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed.

DN 16

James Tan
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by James Tan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:36 am

28. But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed.

DN 16
endure
ɪnˈdjʊə,ɛnˈdjʊə,ɪnˈdʒɔː,ɛnˈdʒɔː/Submit
verb
1.
suffer (something painful or difficult) patiently.



Does enduring not same with suffering ?
:reading:

chownah
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by chownah » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:07 pm

I think it would be good if you explained in what way or ways it is that death is suffering.
chownah

James Tan
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by James Tan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:04 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:07 pm
I think it would be good if you explained in what way or ways it is that death is suffering.
chownah
Maybe you can explain to me if say you are very ill sort like cancer and you are aching to the extreme , and what do you think if you are suffering then or maybe not , just mentally suffering ?
:reading:

chownah
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by chownah » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:56 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:04 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:07 pm
I think it would be good if you explained in what way or ways it is that death is suffering.
chownah
Maybe you can explain to me if say you are very ill sort like cancer and you are aching to the extreme , and what do you think if you are suffering then or maybe not , just mentally suffering ?
Are you saying that you think that death is suffering because it is painful?....and for no other reason?
chownah

James Tan
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by James Tan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:50 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:56 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:04 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:07 pm
I think it would be good if you explained in what way or ways it is that death is suffering.
chownah
Maybe you can explain to me if say you are very ill sort like cancer and you are aching to the extreme , and what do you think if you are suffering then or maybe not , just mentally suffering ?
Are you saying that you think that death is suffering because it is painful?....and for no other reason?
chownah
Hmm, I don't know . Maybe if I could observe closely , I have to find out more . But , from the sutta we can see the arahant took a knife and ends his life ! I thought an arahant only has bodily pains and already abandoned mental suffering , so, I don't know why then need to bother about bodily pains if arahant already has No More Mind Construction ?! :shrug:
:reading:

chownah
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by chownah » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:11 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:50 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:56 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:04 pm


Maybe you can explain to me if say you are very ill sort like cancer and you are aching to the extreme , and what do you think if you are suffering then or maybe not , just mentally suffering ?
Are you saying that you think that death is suffering because it is painful?....and for no other reason?
chownah
Hmm, I don't know . Maybe if I could observe closely , I have to find out more . But , from the sutta we can see the arahant took a knife and ends his life ! I thought an arahant only has bodily pains and already abandoned mental suffering , so, I don't know why then need to bother about bodily pains if arahant already has No More Mind Construction ?! :shrug:
I'm not wanting to put words in your mouth but if one sees pain as being the only suffering associated with death then as long as one could be assured of a painless death then death at any time would be a non-issue.....death tomorrow?....sure....why not.....not a problem....I don't care.
Is this how it is?
chownah

James Tan
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by James Tan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:25 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:11 pm

I'm not wanting to put words in your mouth but if one sees pain as being the only suffering associated with death then as long as one could be assured of a painless death then death at any time would be a non-issue.....death tomorrow?....sure....why not.....not a problem....I don't care.
Is this how it is?
chownah
I think what you are saying is all experiences are mental construction , so when you attain arahant stage, the mental construction should be stopped ! However , it doesn't .
But, of course there is mental agony because due to illness and death .
:reading:

chownah
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by chownah » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:55 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:25 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:11 pm

I'm not wanting to put words in your mouth but if one sees pain as being the only suffering associated with death then as long as one could be assured of a painless death then death at any time would be a non-issue.....death tomorrow?....sure....why not.....not a problem....I don't care.
Is this how it is?
chownah
I think what you are saying is all experiences are mental construction , so when you attain arahant stage, the mental construction should be stopped ! However , it doesn't .
But, of course there is mental agony because due to illness and death .
What I am saying is that if you want to understand what the suttas mean when they say that death is suffering then probably the best place to start is with ones own experience......whatever sort of suffering you are subject to with respect to death is exactly what the idea that death is suffering is all about. You have mentioned the possibility of a painful death (of course some deaths are pretty much painless....while sleeping for instance) and you have mentioned mental agony. Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth but considering the idea that you might die next week would you be most concerned with the pain that would be involved or would the more potent suffering come from mental anguish?
chownah

James Tan
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by James Tan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:00 pm

I don't know about your thinking but for me I would say both . I visited so many times to hospital so I guess death is a very painful thing that I want to avoid if possible .
:reading:

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StormBorn
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Re: Rebirth is suffering ! So is death !

Post by StormBorn » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:14 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:00 pm
I don't know about your thinking but for me I would say both . I visited so many times to hospital so I guess death is a very painful thing that I want to avoid if possible .
By "death is a very painful thing," did you mean as a physical pain or a mental pain (perhaps the pain of leaving what's known and gathered)?
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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