Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

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StormBorn
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Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

Post by StormBorn »

A Sinhala speaking friend informed me about an recent newspaper article (in Sinhala) by the famous Sri Lankan missionary monk called Kiribathgoda Gnanananda. He is the founder of Mahamewnawa Asapu.

The article seems to be an episode of an ongoing exchange of verbal daggers between him and another famous missionary monk called Pitiduwe Siridhamma who claims to be an arahant. The title of the article itself says it all, “My effort is to expose the fake arahants.”

What caught my interests is this question and Kiribathgoda Gnanananda’s answer to it (translated by my friend).
Q: Isn’t it possible arahants to exist these days?

A: There are no arahants on earth. I can say that with definite certainty. But possible in Brahma worlds. After established the bhikkhuni sangha, Lord Buddha said, “My dispensation (sasana) lasts only 500 years.” We must accept the Buddha’s words and see whether the history is correct. And that is exactly what has happened. Is’s there in the Mahavansa (Sri Lankan chronicle) that the Buddhism will be established in Sri Lanka. That is true. There is a power that keeps the beings bound to samsara. Buddha called it “maara.” He uses human defilements to fulfil his wishes. Buddha defeated the maara and achieved enlightenment. Dispensation will lasts 5,000 years but the maara will not allow anyone to become an arahant after 500 years. There’s a name for the arahant. That is the one who defeats the army of the maara. Maara will never let that happened. But, it’s possible to achieve fruitions such as sovan and sakrudagami.
I'm confused about how the ordaining of bhikkhunis caused a 500 year expiry date on the dispensation? Then what we have now? Is this canonical? Seems like this busybody maara fellow :jedi: is more powerful than the Buddha! :sage:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
TRobinson465
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

Post by TRobinson465 »

StormBorn wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:41 am A Sinhala speaking friend informed me about an recent newspaper article (in Sinhala) by the famous Sri Lankan missionary monk called Kiribathgoda Gnanananda. He is the founder of Mahamewnawa Asapu.

The article seems to be an episode of an ongoing exchange of verbal daggers between him and another famous missionary monk called Pitiduwe Siridhamma who claims to be an arahant. The title of the article itself says it all, “My effort is to expose the fake arahants.”

What caught my interests is this question and Kiribathgoda Gnanananda’s answer to it (translated by my friend).
Q: Isn’t it possible arahants to exist these days?

A: There are no arahants on earth. I can say that with definite certainty. But possible in Brahma worlds. After established the bhikkhuni sangha, Lord Buddha said, “My dispensation (sasana) lasts only 500 years.” We must accept the Buddha’s words and see whether the history is correct. And that is exactly what has happened. Is’s there in the Mahavansa (Sri Lankan chronicle) that the Buddhism will be established in Sri Lanka. That is true. There is a power that keeps the beings bound to samsara. Buddha called it “maara.” He uses human defilements to fulfil his wishes. Buddha defeated the maara and achieved enlightenment. Dispensation will lasts 5,000 years but the maara will not allow anyone to become an arahant after 500 years. There’s a name for the arahant. That is the one who defeats the army of the maara. Maara will never let that happened. But, it’s possible to achieve fruitions such as sovan and sakrudagami.
I'm confused about how the ordaining of bhikkhunis caused a 500 year expiry date on the dispensation? Then what we have now? Is this canonical? Seems like this busybody maara fellow :jedi: is more powerful than the Buddha! :sage:
this is canonical.
Ānanda, if females had not gained the going forth from the lay life to homelessness in the teaching and training proclaimed by the Realized One, the spiritual life would have lasted long. The true teaching would have remained for a thousand years. But since they have gained the going forth, now the spiritual life will not last long.The true teaching will remain only five hundred years.
https://suttacentral.net/an8.51/en/sujato
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

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I think this is probably right. Even in the orthodox Theravada there are so many contradictions within traditions. they cant all be right. In fact, at best, only one tradition is right, and everyone thinks its thier own, and if not thier own tradition, its whatever interpretation they made up by themselves using their super smart brains to interpret the suttas and because they are so smart they are right and everyone else is wrong. Basically, people who take this prediction as accurate would say none of the Buddhist traditions alive today are technically right. Anybody who goes around saying they believe in "True" Buddhism is wrong. because none of them are true buddhism.

It should be noted that Buddhaghosa extended this to 5,000 years in his commentary or something. Although i do not know his reasoning.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

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As for why ordaining Bhikkhuni caused this, its explained here, the Buddha gives three reasons.
It’s like those families with many women and few men. They’re easy prey for bandits and thieves. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.

It’s like a field full of rice. Once the disease called ‘white bones’ attacks, it doesn’t last long. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.

It’s like a field full of sugar cane. Once the disease called ‘red rot’ attacks, it doesn’t last long. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.
https://suttacentral.net/an8.51/en/sujato

the first reason sorta makes sense given that time period when you think about it. Bandits back then would certainly target mostly female households and monastaries for looting because they are seen as easier targets. Generally speaking male bandits can overpower female households easier than male households. and its not like they had phones to call the cops for help back then. the other reasons I do not quite understand, as i am not familiar with what those crop diseases are.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

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Id also like to note that just because "true" Buddhism isn't supposed to technically exist anymore, it doesnt mean its not helpful. as what we have now at least it resembles the ultimate truth about reality. Although in an impure form and with several contradictory traditions.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

Post by salayatananirodha »

All sammāsambuddhas have bhikkhuni orders and the buddha in DN 16 made it clear that he wanted his nuns to prosper in order to preserve the dhamma. There's a paper somewhere by ven anālayo about this, but it's in suttas. The wheel of dhamma has been turned and cant be stopped by anyone in the world; actually when the words of disciples are listened to over the buddhas the dhamma is said to be disappearing or disappeared. We have some of the same discourses preached that spontaneously led to arahantship, so why couldn't it be that on hearing them we may also attain nibbāna?
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

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don't forget about paccekabuddhas
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

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salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:16 am don't forget about paccekabuddhas
From my understanding, Paccakabuddhas cannot exist when Buddhism is still in existence. So this wouldnt really be a case for arahants existing now, unless i am mistaken about this rule.
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

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Yeah, I've heard that too but I can't find a good sutta reference for it outside of commentary
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

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salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:14 am All sammāsambuddhas have bhikkhuni orders and the buddha in DN 16 made it clear that he wanted his nuns to prosper in order to preserve the dhamma.
Yes i found this interesting. I think i read a paper on that (cant remember from whom tho), the Buddha hesitated but all Buddhas ordained Bhikkhuni and being a Buddha, the Buddha knew he would ordain Bhikkhuni also. So he only bothered to deny them at first so he could explain the reason for the garudhammas or something was what the author argued.
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

7. The Duration of the Religion

“After the ordination of women, the Blessed One said that the pure doctrine would only last for five hundred years.²⁶ However, to Subhadda he said, ‘So long as the brethren live the perfect holy life then this world will not be bereft of Arahants.’ These state­ments are contradic­tory.”

“O king, the Blessed One did make both state­ments, but they are different in the spirit and in the letter. One deals with the duration of the pure doc­trine whereas the other deals with the practice of the religious life, two things widely distinct. In saying five hundred years he was fixing a limit to religion but in speaking to Subhadda he was declar­ing in what religion consisted. If the sons of the Buddha continue to exert themselves in the five factors of striving,²⁷ have a sincere desire for the three train­ings,²⁸ perfec­ting themselves in conduct and virtue; then the glorious teaching of the Con­queror will long endure and stand more and more steadfast as the years roll on. The teaching of the Master, O king, has its root in practice, practice is its essence, and it stands as long as practice does not decline.

There are three modes of disappearance of a teaching. The decline of the attainment to a clear insight into it, of practice in accordance with it, and decline in the outward form of it. When the intel­lectual grasp ceases then even the man who conducts himself rightly has no clear understanding of it. By the decline of practice, promulgation of the Vinaya rules ceases and only the outward form of the religion remains. When the outward form ceases then the succession of the tradition is cut off.”
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

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I wonder why Buddha stated "Sandhittiko, Akaliko" when explaining qualities of Dhamma. To say Arahaths do not exist or to imply that there is no possibility of four stages of enlightenment is contradictory with above qualities.

I was under the impression that after 500 years there won't be Arahants who possed Pancha Abhinna, Ashta Samapaththi and arta,dhamma,nirutti,patibhana. Maybe an epitome of Arahtship?

I see Ven K Gnananda as a monk who revived Dhana and Sila. He initially gained notoriety for rejecting Abhidamma. A famous monk, Galigamuwe Gnadipa who used to be a student of his wrote a book titled " Mahamevanawa Nisa Bududahama Anathura" (Buddhism is threatened by Mahamevna). To me Ven gnanananda preaches an oversimplified version of Buddhism to apeal to the masses. There is nothing wrong in it, but we all know Dhamma is more than that.

Ven Sri Samnthrabadra (used to be Ven Pitiduwe Siridhamma) is a whole other case. He seemed like your avarage run in the mill monk who valued dhana, sila and encouraged people to meditate. However after gaining popularity He changed his name and came out claiming to be an Arahant. I've read a book by him and all he says is to "give up" yet provides no "how to" and rejects meditation. ( I could be wrong here on wether he entirely rejects meditation or has redefined what meditation is) Also he values extravagant ceremonies and riches.

To summarize both these monks create lot of buzz but the way I see, both of them have deviated from the path. I am not passing judgement just stating what I feel.
Last edited by SamD on Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
SarathW
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

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Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:01 am 7. The Duration of the Religion

“After the ordination of women, the Blessed One said that the pure doctrine would only last for five hundred years.²⁶ However, to Subhadda he said, ‘So long as the brethren live the perfect holy life then this world will not be bereft of Arahants.’ These state­ments are contradic­tory.”

“O king, the Blessed One did make both state­ments, but they are different in the spirit and in the letter. One deals with the duration of the pure doc­trine whereas the other deals with the practice of the religious life, two things widely distinct. In saying five hundred years he was fixing a limit to religion but in speaking to Subhadda he was declar­ing in what religion consisted. If the sons of the Buddha continue to exert themselves in the five factors of striving,²⁷ have a sincere desire for the three train­ings,²⁸ perfec­ting themselves in conduct and virtue; then the glorious teaching of the Con­queror will long endure and stand more and more steadfast as the years roll on. The teaching of the Master, O king, has its root in practice, practice is its essence, and it stands as long as practice does not decline.

There are three modes of disappearance of a teaching. The decline of the attainment to a clear insight into it, of practice in accordance with it, and decline in the outward form of it. When the intel­lectual grasp ceases then even the man who conducts himself rightly has no clear understanding of it. By the decline of practice, promulgation of the Vinaya rules ceases and only the outward form of the religion remains. When the outward form ceases then the succession of the tradition is cut off.”
Thank you, Bhante for clarifying this.
In my opinion, it is still possible for people to become an Arahant even though I am still struggling to observe the five precepts.
The most important factor is to become a Sotapanna, not an Arahant.
Once you become a Sotapanna you become an Arahant withing seven lives. Which is negligible considering the length of Samsara.
I have no faith in both monks Ven Gunananda or Ven Samanthabadra. I have discussed this in another post.
The great thing is they both expose each other.
Buddhism is practiced on many levels. The teachings of these monks are appealing to the grassroots level.
it is not a bad thing after all.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

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SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:09 am
Thank you, Bhante for clarifying this.
In my opinion, it is still possible for people to become an Arahant even though I am still struggling to observe the five precepts.
The most important factor is to become a Sotapanna, not an Arahant.
Once you become a Sotapanna you become an Arahant withing seven lives. Which is negligible considering the length of Samsara.
I have no faith in both monks Ven Gunananda or Ven Samanthabadra. I have discussed this in another post.
The great thing is they both expose each other.
Buddhism is practiced on many levels. The teachings of these monks are appealing to the grassroots level.
it is not a bad thing after all.
:clap:
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Re: Buddhism Expired, says Gnanananda

Post by StormBorn »

Thank you bhante and all others for the input. Out of all the references posted here that supports a 500-year expiry date, we have to put aside Buddhaghosa and Milinda’s Questions since they are evidently after the Buddha. This leaves us AN 8.51 and it’s parallels (I can’t read Chinese, so unable to verify all). Now the question is: if Buddha really talked about this expiry date in AN 8.51, then why he said this in his last discourse?
“Subhadda, in whatsoever Dhamma-vinaya, the Noble Eightfold Path is to be found, four Noble Ones are also to be found. If the bhikkhus live properly, the world will not be empty of arahants.
- DN 16, Mahaparinibbana Sutta
To me the only message Ganananda like monks give by talking “an expiry date” for what ever realisation is: "they don't understand the Path properly and didn’t live their monk life properly.” If one can become a sotapanna then there is no Dhammic cap stopping them from becoming arahants.
SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:09 am The teachings of these monks are appealing to the grassroots level.
A poison for the grassroots :stirthepot:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
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