Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by DooDoot »

James Tan wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:55 amWould you mind define noble kamma ?
AN 6.63. N8FP = kamma that ends kamma = anatta & sunnata.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:02 am, edited 5 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:57 am
James Tan wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:55 amWould you mind define noble kamma ?
AN 6.63. N8FP = kamma that ends kamma = anatta & sunnata.
Thanks dude .
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budo
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by budo »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:44 am Greetings,
budo wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:36 am Makes me wonder, are governments not breaking the precept of taking what's not given? Hmm.. ;)
The Buddha allowed for appropriate levels of taxation, so I'd suggest no.... but nice "taxation is theft" gag nonetheless. 8-)

Metta,
Paul. :)
Maybe he was a minarchist :)
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DooDoot
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by DooDoot »

Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist? Because Feminists struggle to abide alone and depend on men for approval. Because Feminism brings no real happiness and Feminists must search for a different path to end their Feminist created suffering. :heart:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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AgarikaJ
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by AgarikaJ »

James Tan wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:22 am
AgarikaJ wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:46 am ...........
Hi ,

I think you don't understand the real situation over there . This is not just feminism .The moderators and their like minded members would gangs up to attack on those whom posted some different perspective ! Or if you Questioning their pov .
Sometimes even without valid reason after you just post some questions only .
You don't even no you had been abused until suddenly it came clear to you after many incident occurs and after over a period lapsed .
I don't know if you ever heard of Gaslighting ?!
I do not doubt your word that you feel this way.

However: "so I am not sure why you carry this private conflict over here." You seem quite insistent on discussing your experiences on SuttaCentral with precedence over actual questions of scripture (eg. if the Garudhamma is to be seen as valid or a later addition).

Answers given by others on here seem to suggest that you are not standing alone in your impression that discussion on SuttaCentral is weighed against certain views. I am not sure if this could be enough validation for you, as maybe the reasons for your feeling of not being accepted and heard do go deeper.

I do not want to make light of your feelings: feeling rejected is a harsh experience and one that might not pass easily, especially if the reasons are beyond what you can influence.

As I was not involved in your previous discussions, all I can offer to you is the Canki Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bikkhu. It has helped me assessing statements presented as fact solely on the conviction that they were true or that long-held tradition had it so. Maybe it gives you equal help in reflecting on the answers you got and how to include or reject this information for your own practice.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
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DooDoot
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by DooDoot »

AgarikaJ wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:43 amI do not doubt your word that you feel this way.
Sounds like u have never worked in a workplace dominated by female managers. :shock: :| In Australia, one the largest companies called "AMP" has and is currently subject to a govt investigation. My sister was bullied heavily there by her female manager & left. Most the board of directors have resigned and most are women. There is no inherent virtue in being a man or a woman. Margaret Thatcher, Madeline Allbright, Condaleza Rice, Susan Rice, Hillary Clinton, etc, have an awful humanitarian record.
Women have a man as their ambition. They explore for adornments. They’re committed to their children. They insist on being without a co-wife. Their ultimate goal is sovereignty (domination).”

“Itthī kho, brāhmaṇa, purisādhippāyā alaṅkārūpavicārā puttādhiṭṭhānā asapattībhinivesā issariyapariyosānā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.52/en/sujato
Its funny to read men who are under the thumb! :twothumbsup:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
sentinel
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by sentinel »

AgarikaJ wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:43 am
James Tan wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:22 am
AgarikaJ wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:46 am ...........
Hi ,

I think you don't understand the real situation over there . This is not just feminism .The moderators and their like minded members would gangs up to attack on those whom posted some different perspective ! Or if you Questioning their pov .
Sometimes even without valid reason after you just post some questions only .
You don't even no you had been abused until suddenly it came clear to you after many incident occurs and after over a period lapsed .
I don't know if you ever heard of Gaslighting ?!
I do not doubt your word that you feel this way.

However: "so I am not sure why you carry this private conflict over here." You seem quite insistent on discussing your experiences on SuttaCentral with precedence over actual questions of scripture (eg. if the Garudhamma is to be seen as valid or a later addition).

Answers given by others on here seem to suggest that you are not standing alone in your impression that discussion on SuttaCentral is weighed against certain views. I am not sure if this could be enough validation for you, as maybe the reasons for your feeling of not being accepted and heard do go deeper.

I do not want to make light of your feelings: feeling rejected is a harsh experience and one that might not pass easily, especially if the reasons are beyond what you can influence.

As I was not involved in your previous discussions, all I can offer to you is the Canki Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bikkhu. It has helped me assessing statements presented as fact solely on the conviction that they were true or that long-held tradition had it so. Maybe it gives you equal help in reflecting on the answers you got and how to include or reject this information for your own practice.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think you missed the point here. Feminism is.
It seems when people want to bring some topic into discussion , you want to talk about personal practice which is entirely a different matter .
Why do you want to insist people not to bring any topic into discussion ? You can leave it at that .
You always gain by giving
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DooDoot
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by DooDoot »

Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist? The Buddha said in DN 31:
In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:

(i) by being courteous to her,
(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html

A husband should serve his wife as the western quarter in five ways:

Pañcahi kho, gahapatiputta, ṭhānehi sāmikena pacchimā disā bhariyā paccupaṭṭhātabbā—

by treating her with honor, by not looking down on her, by not being unfaithful, by relinquishing sovereignty to her, and by presenting her with adornments.

sammānanāya anavamānanāya anaticariyāya issariyavossaggena alaṅkārānuppadānena.

https://suttacentral.net/dn31/en/sujato
:jumping:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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AgarikaJ
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by AgarikaJ »

James Tan wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:58 am I think you missed the point here. Feminism is.
It seems when people want to bring some topic into discussion , you want to talk about personal practice which is entirely a different matter .
Why do you want to insist people not to bring any topic into discussion ? You can leave it at that .
I am not sure that you are right, though.

It is obvious that Thang has a personal conflict with moderators on SuttaCentral Discourse over what he describes as 'feminist' attitudes, but if one actually follows the links he posted, one comes to discussions about the validity of the Garudhamma and gender roles in Buddhism, especially with regard to bikkhunis.

I would bring forward that modern feminism has, to my knowledge, no specific position on this.

As such, Thang was either imprecise in his use of language, which explains my confusion, or his topic is indeed not about 'feminism'. I am sure he will come back here and clarify.

But until being told differently, I do not need to use conjecture. Thang's direct answer to me seems to have confirmed, that the way moderation happened to him is the main reason for his discord. I answered this issue as he described it, so I am not sure in which way you got the impression I was talking about something unrelated to his concerns.

Of course, for all who want to make this topic about (the negative sides of) 'feminism', go ahead. But I see already that the language that is used is openly disparaging and divisive, so it is a topic I feel will be unlikely to be helpful to anybody.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
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AgarikaJ
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by AgarikaJ »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:03 pm Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist? The Buddha said in DN 31:
In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:

(i) by being courteous to her,
(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html

A husband should serve his wife as the western quarter in five ways:

Pañcahi kho, gahapatiputta, ṭhānehi sāmikena pacchimā disā bhariyā paccupaṭṭhātabbā—

by treating her with honor, by not looking down on her, by not being unfaithful, by relinquishing sovereignty to her, and by presenting her with adornments.

sammānanāya anavamānanāya anaticariyāya issariyavossaggena alaṅkārānuppadānena.

https://suttacentral.net/dn31/en/sujato
:jumping:
Maybe it is not obvious to me, how do you define the terms 'authority' and 'sovereignty' to mean something different? Especially after noting that the Buddha talks about compassionate behavior *in a household* and specifically *between husband and wife*.

One might note that the section goes on to ascribe a set of compassionate actions a wife shall bring to her husband in return, so this is a two-way street.

Anyway, the Sigalovada Sutta describes the way in which harmony is achieved in the life of laymen, by respecting each other in different and appropriate ways. I believe it to be an exceptional helpful Sutta when confronted by questions of everyday interactions.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
thang
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by thang »

AgarikaJ wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:41 pm I would bring forward that modern feminism has, to my knowledge, no specific position on this.
Don' t take it so literally as modern western feminism related to politics. This is Buddhist feminism which has been influenced by modern views.
AgarikaJ wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:41 pm the way moderation happened to him is the main reason for his discord.
Not only to me but also for many from the beginning.
AgarikaJ wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:41 pm Of course, for all who want to make this topic about (the negative sides of) 'feminism', go ahead.
This is not about criticizing feminism or any other view. This is about discriminating hiding under the equality and imposing their views on others hiding under the text analysis.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."
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Circle5
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by Circle5 »

AgarikaJ wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:46 am I have gotten the impression that the discourse of Ajahn Sujato does not lack in knowledge of scripture. Which would make me very careful to reject any discussion happening on SuttaCentral -- which happens, as it was implied rightly or wrongly, happens with his tacit approval -- out of hand and without carefully looking at it in detail.
I want to make it clear too that I highly respect B.Sujato for his knowledge of scripture and intensive efforts to promote the real dhamma. I highly respect what he has done as a buddhist in promoting the real dhamma. Also, I checked what was up with the 150k price and it was in AUD, meaning 107k USD, and it was the price for the construction of the new website, not for simple maintainance. This is probably quite normal for such a site if done at a western company. A simple presentation website that costs 300-500$ in Romania (and much less if done by Indians on freelancer sites) costs 5000$ in USA.

The problem raised here is the big attachment to a certain ideology. Giving his life history of getting his monastery kicked out of the Thai Forest tradition due to exactly this kind of stuff, it's normal to be quite mentaly conditioned to defend your previous actions. That's how all people are. Then, you add complete lack of management skills on top of that and you end up with a terribly moderated forum. He probably never bothered to google tips about how to run a forum.

This is very problematic to members because I have been harrassed and treated in terrible ways by moderation there. I even had one moderator tell gruesome lies to B.Sujato about my discussion PM with her. One of the mods lied to all others mods and B.Sujato that I insinuated that she sexually abuses children (WTF!!! :)))))))) ) in PM, without showing the PM of course lol. The PM of course contained nothing of that sort and was actually a friendly random PM, it wasn't even about some argument. I made a big scandal about it to B.Sujato, showed my PM message and still got no real and honest apology for what happened. They just insisted it was a misunderstanding. Sujato defends those mods no matter what they do. The possibility that a mod might ever make a mistake on STC is something incomprehensible, a symptom of Group thinking. I have been profoundly schocked by how terrible people can be as a human despite claiming to be buddhist. I rarely encountered people that low as a human in my life. People that can tell that level of a lie... as buddha said... "there is no telling what evil they can do". Not to mention how childish the whole bullying is over there. It doesn't feel like you are dealing with adults. On the forum there are many respectable and wise people, you can't have angry vindictive kids being in authority positions and ruining the place.

Other tactics include: deleting absolutaly random posts and topics in a hope to anger you, speaking with you PM like a King to a servant, doing their best to bully you in the hope that you get angry and then be able to justify their actions.

Some buddhist tend to forget that Evil unseen by others is always seen by oneself. They feel like if it's in PM and not public, or if a post gets deleted, any kind of evilness can go as long as nobody sees it.

With forum moderators, things go the same as in real life with bosses. You can't put a highly narcissistic and vindictive kid with little wisdom and self awareness to be a boss over others. Nobody would do that to his business, because money is involved and things are treated seriously. Buddhist forums, even though they don't produce money, are infinitely more important in value and should be treated more seriously. It is a shame to work so much promoting the real Dhamma, creating incalculable amounts of value, and yet treating your online community less seriously than a random football forum is generally treated by his creators. Even random forums are at least a little careful when choosing moderators and treat themselves a little more seriously.

Most important quality you want at a forum moderator, especially a buddhist one, is being a decent human. All other things such as having leadership experience, being wise, being self-aware, being smart, etc. come second. You can't have people that are terrible as a human be good in leadership positions anywhere, let alone on a buddhist forum.
Last edited by Circle5 on Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
thang
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by thang »

Circle5 wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:14 pm I want to make it clear too that I highly respect B.Sujato for his knowledge of scripture and intensive efforts to promote the real dhamma. I highly respect what he has done as a buddhist in promoting the real dhamma. Also, I checked what was up with the 150k price and it was in AUD, meaning 107k USD, and it was the price for the construction of the new website, not for simple maintainance. This is probably quite normal for such a site if done at a western company. A simple presentation website that costs 300-500$ in Romania (and much less if done by Indians on freelancer sites) costs 5000$ in USA.
We also respect him. If he use his knowledge in the bad way there will be a big disaster. Don't his elder/teacher monks advice him?
Circle5 wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:14 pm The problem raised here is the big attachment to a certain ideology. Giving his life history of getting his monastery kicked out of the Thai Forest tradition due to exactly this kind of stuff, it's normal to be quite mentaly conditioned to defend your previous actions. That's how all people are. Then, you add complete lack of management skills on top of that and you end up with a terribly moderated forum. He probably never bothered to google tips about how to run a forum.
Yes It seems like that.
Circle5 wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:14 pm This is very problematic to members because I have been harrassed and treated in terrible ways by moderation there. I even had one moderator tell gruesome lies to B.Sujato about my discussion PM with her. One of the mods lied to all others mods and B.Sujato that I insinuated that she sexually abuses children (WTF!!! :)))))))) ) in PM, without showing the PM of course lol. The PM of course contained nothing of that sort and was actually a friendly random PM, it wasn't even about some argument. I made a big scandal about it to B.Sujato, showed my PM message and still got no real and honest apology for what happened. They just insisted it was a misunderstanding and apologized for that. I have been profoundly schocked by how terrible people can be as a human despite claiming to be buddhist. I rarely encountered people that low as a human in my life. People that can tell that level of a lie... as buddha said... "there is no telling what evil they can do". Not to mention how childish the whole bullying is over there. It doesn't feel like you are dealing with adults. On the forum there are many respectable and wise people, you can't have angry vindictive kids being in authority positions and ruining the place.
I can understand what has happened.
Circle5 wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:14 pm With forum moderators, things go the same as in real life with bosses. You can't put a highly narcissistic and vindictive kid with little wisdom and self awareness to be a boss over others. Nobody would do that to his business, because money is involved and things are treated seriously. Buddhist forums, even though they don't produce money, are infinitely more important in value and should be treated more seriously. It is a shame to work so much promoting the real Dhamma, creating incalculable amounts of value, and yet treating your forum less seriously than a random football forum is generally treated by his creators. Even random forums are at least a little careful when choosing moderators and treat themselves a little more seriously.
Playing with Dhamma is the problem.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
TRobinson465 wrote:Although perhaps your rules only count unsubstantiated badmouthing, in which case i wouldnt have a case.
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:30 amPerhaps if it were gratuitous, it might constitute badmouthing, and there is a possibility that this topic may be closed if moderators assess that this line has been crossed...
...and it seems now as if that threshold has been crossed.

Thank you to those who endeavoured to participate in the conversation in a constructive manner.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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