Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Bundokji
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by Bundokji » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:34 am

What i learned when i read the first link in the OP is how much establishing and operating Buddhist website can cost in terms of money, effort and time. I hope i can learn how to use them properly.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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StormBorn
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by StormBorn » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:40 am

DNS wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:57 am
StormBorn wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:44 am
“All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.”
:? :lol:
Yep! I thought someone might laugh at it (or even offended) given the topic at hand :tongue:

brotherhood
noun
-[mass noun]the relationship between brothers
-the feeling of kinship with and closeness to a group of people or all people
-association, society, or community of people linked by a common interest, religion, or trade
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Circle5
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by Circle5 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:06 am

Bundokji wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:34 am
What i learned when i read the first link in the OP is how much establishing and operating Buddhist website can cost in terms of money, effort and time. I hope i can learn how to use them properly.
Was that number for real lol ?

About the problem in question, I could not agree more. That has been my experience too. Constant bullying from moderation to try to force you to leave the forum or stop engaging in topics where your opinion is not welcomed (feminist ones, that are probably more numerous than buddhist ones).

This is what happens when there is lack of wisdom in choosing who to rule a place. You can not put 20yo that are head and shoulders into an ideology and lack the experience of leadership in real life to run a place. People that have little or no real life experience in running something or being a boss over others, are inexperienced and have some problems with narcissistic traits - such people make for bad forum moderators. There are many suggestions one can find online about "how to chose forum moderators" on google.



History has shown that buddhist forums are much more prone to moderation problems than other forums. This is because of their nature. All religion or philosophy related forums are like this because of the fact that, on average, people from these fields tend to have more problems with narcissistic traits than others.

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Circle5
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by Circle5 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:11 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:26 pm
I was a member of a buddhist forum and after posting for awhile I began to see how the administration seemed to think that those who ran the site should be looked up to and venerated just because of their position of authority. Once I had clearly seen that this is what was happening I dropped it like a rock; I withdrew my membership and never went back.

chownah
:goodpost: Good observation

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by salayatananirodha » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:00 am

The declaration that women can attain the highest goal (nibbāna) by the buddha is a sort of feminism if you'd asked me. Real equality via gender relinquishment. Notable example from therigatha is an arahant saying she isn't properly reckoned as male, female or anything at all. Similarly, the buddha declared that deeds make a man rather than his birth (skin color). This is all the radicalism one in search of equality could ever want. At least one reputable monk, ven. anālayo, has argued against the authenticity of the garudhammas, he being an early buddhist scholar, which lends to the appropriateness of such a position on an early buddhist forum.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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DooDoot
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by DooDoot » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:18 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:01 pm
I only use SC for looking up suttas. It's wonderful for that; like a big empty library with excellent signage and not a feminist in sight.
SC is the greatest sutta resource. Bhikkhu Sujato had performed something outstanding. Personally, I am very grateful for it. Having feminists look after the chatsite is similar to having dasi-bhariya (plural?) doing the cooking, cleaning & washing. In Buddhism, being a "housewife" appears to be a state of mind. Wherever there is rigid adherence to views & opinions; that is the sphere of the "housewife". :D
The form element, housewife, is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the form element is called one who roams about in a home. The feeling element is the home of consciousness … The perception element is the home of consciousness … The volitional formations element is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the volitional formations element is called one who roams about in a home. It is in such a way that one roams about in a home.

“And how, housewife, does one roam about homeless? The desire, lust, delight, and craving, the engagement and clinging, the mental standpoints, adherences, and underlying tendencies regarding the form element: these have been abandoned by the Tathagata, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that they are no more subject to future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is called one who roams about homeless. The desire, lust, delight, and craving, the engagement and clinging, the mental standpoints, adherences, and underlying tendencies regarding the feeling element … the perception element … the volitional formations element … the consciousness element: these have been abandoned by the Tathagata, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that they are no more subject to future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is called one who roams about homeless. It is in such a way that one roams about homeless.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.3/en/bodhi

James Tan
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by James Tan » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:18 am



The form element, housewife, is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the form element is called one who roams about in a home. The feeling element is the home of consciousness … The perception element is the home of consciousness … The volitional formations element is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the volitional formations element is called one who roams about in a home. It is in such a way that one roams about in a home.



https://suttacentral.net/sn22.3/en/bodhi
“The form element, householder, is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the form element is called one who roams about in a home.


It seems the word is Householder !
:reading:

thang
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by thang » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:05 am

It is not a baseless badmouthing.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:23 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:18 am
It's simply a statement of fact that there is a feminist agenda at Sutta Central Discourse, on account of their hiring policies for moderators, which exclude men from consideration.
Its true its a statement of fact, .... and if you read some of SC forums they arent even remotely as fair as DW. if i tried making an account and posting my views, im sure Sujato would just block me.
James Tan wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:26 am
Hmm , no news is new.
The house belongs to them.
The rules is theirs.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:01 am
Anyways sutta central is feminist cuz the admins take heavy control of what points of view are allowed. Because the few admins are feminists they push this viewpoint and silence opposing ones.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:17 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:01 am
I'd imagine DW would also turn feminist if enuff really determined feminists rushed the servers and started calling any1 with a different pov a heretic or nazi.
Yes i agree. when its top down and POVs forced by admins like SC the culture is longer lasting.
Circle5 wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:06 am
That has been my experience too. Constant bullying from moderation to try to force you to leave the forum or stop engaging in topics where your opinion is not welcomed (feminist ones, that are probably more numerous than buddhist ones).
This is what happens when there is lack of wisdom in choosing who to rule a place.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:18 am
Having feminists look after the chatsite is similar to having dasi-bhariya (plural?) doing the cooking, cleaning & washing. In Buddhism, being a "housewife" appears to be a state of mind. Wherever there is rigid adherence to views & opinions; that is the sphere of the "housewife". :D
You can see it for yourself:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/br ... t/8989/116
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/br ... t/8989/117
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/br ... t/8989/118

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/fo ... ion/6978/5
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/fo ... ion/6978/8
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/fo ... ion/6978/9
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/fo ... on/6978/10
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

Dinsdale
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:37 am

Al forums have their idiosyncrasies. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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AgarikaJ
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by AgarikaJ » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:46 am

thang wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:37 pm
The forum SuttaCentral can be seen catering feminist ideologies very strongly.
Is it appropriate to maintain Buddhist forums with such an extremism and non-Buddhist ideologies?
Non feminist users are getting banned and suspended. Moderators have been ganged up and post warnings against non extremist users or people with different ideas.
You can easily see what is going on there by visiting following links.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/di ... tors/10639
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/fo ... ation/6978

Gender Equality catering is an ant-Sutta behavior.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/se ... stics/8805
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ch ... hists/9925

Refusing Garudhamma:

http://santifm.org/santipada/wp-content ... #tth_chAp2
I looked at the links you have provided. The first two pertain about public discussion of moderation, which for good reason is frowned upon in discussion boards, as it can (and will) lead to endless recriminations. If there is criticism about moderators, it is best practice to sort it out with them in private messages.

I am sure this is the same in Sutta Central Discourse at it would be here on Dhamma Wheel, so I am not sure why you carry this private conflict over here.

With regard to the views that Bikkhuni Vimala expresses in her post https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/se ... stics/8805; I find her questions valid:

"How do we fit into a 2500 year old system that has seen many socio-cultural changes over time? How many changes have actually been made to the texts after the Buddha’s passing away and why?"

Her conclusion I find highly suspect, namely that we need further changes to the texts to 'modernize' them or that maybe some of the texts are invalidated due to being later additions (which would, I guess, include the Garudhamma).

Still, I would listen to her arguments and then would wish that somebody knowledgeable would discuss her based on the argument itself and refute her if she is mistaken in her view. Only such a discourse would have merit.

To broadly deny the validity of her argument because her views are generally 'feminist' (and especially doing this on a forum where she might not partake in the discussion) is, to my mind, not Right Speech.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!'

"Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."
I have gotten the impression that the discourse of Ajahn Sujato does not lack in knowledge of scripture. Which would make me very careful to reject any discussion happening on SuttaCentral -- which happens, as it was implied rightly or wrongly, happens with his tacit approval -- out of hand and without carefully looking at it in detail.

Which would lead me to a suggestion to you, Thang: as you seem personally unhappy about the conclusions with regard to the validity (or not) of the Garudhamma, why don't you open up a thread here with this discussion point specifically. The personal recriminations clouding this issue of yours are just an unhelpful deflection. :anjali:
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

James Tan
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by James Tan » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:22 am

AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:46 am
...........
Hi ,

I think you don't understand the real situation over there . This is not just feminism .The moderators and their like minded members would gangs up to attack on those whom posted some different perspective ! Or if you Questioning their pov .
Sometimes even without valid reason after you just post some questions only .
You don't even no you had been abused until suddenly it came clear to you after many incident occurs and after over a period lapsed .
I don't know if you ever heard of Gaslighting ?!
:reading:

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budo
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by budo » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:18 am
Greetings,
TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:15 am
Not that im a fan of SuttaCentral's forums or its moderators. but isnt there a rule about talking bad about other Buddhist forums?
Are you suggesting that feminism is bad?

:stirthepot:

In a libertarian society there is no need for feminism or any type of gender or racial based movements, thus there is true equality. Discrimination can only happen when it involves the law and authority, in other words, socialism and the distribution of wealth. If forcing private companies to pay women more, or hire more women is feminism, then feminsm is simply rebranded communism, which is extremely bad and far from equality.


But that's a topic for another forum..

Makes me wonder, are governments not breaking the precept of taking what's not given? Hmm.. ;)

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DooDoot
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by DooDoot » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:42 am

AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:46 am
I have gotten the impression that the discourse of Ajahn Sujato does not lack in knowledge of scripture. Which would make me very careful to reject any discussion happening on SuttaCentral...
Personally, I think it is unskillful to invite open dispute about the knowledge of a certain bhikkhu. Buddhism is something extremely sectarian. Ajahn Sujato's views are merely sectarian; similar to say how my personal views are sectarian. If I was a member of SC, out of mere respect, I would not challenge Ajahn Sujato's views, even if I did not agree with them. Sectarianism is like this; any opportunity for accepting diversity rather than claiming authority.
AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:46 am
Which would make me very careful to reject any discussion happening on SuttaCentral...
For me, it would be joyful meritorious liberation to reject probably the majority of the discussions on SC; the foremost in noble kamma.
thang wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:37 pm
Non feminist users are getting banned and suspended.
This would be similar to the old martyrs reborn into the heavily realms. Pure joy. Refer to MN 21: The Simile of the Saw. The point is those Feminists do not appear to be free. Why be concerned with them? Buddhism teaches to have equanimity; reflecting on the law of kamma.

:anjali:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:55 am, edited 13 times in total.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:44 am

Greetings,
budo wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:36 am
Makes me wonder, are governments not breaking the precept of taking what's not given? Hmm.. ;)
The Buddha allowed for appropriate levels of taxation, so I'd suggest no.... but nice "taxation is theft" gag nonetheless. 8-)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

James Tan
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Re: Why SuttaCentral is so Feminist

Post by James Tan » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:42 am

For me, it would be joyful meritorious liberation to reject probably the majority of the discussions on SC; the foremost in noble kamma.


Would you mind define noble kamma ?
:reading:

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